We aren’t carnivores, we are omnivores. An advantage that surely allowed the growth of our brains and allowed us to become the dominant species in the planet.
Our teeth our designed in a way to both rip/tear meat and also grind up plants.
It is great that some sector of the population can be vegetarian or vegan, but it isn’t a realistic option if everyone did so. Farming is destroying hundred of thousands of acres of land every year. Keeping up with a plant-based only diet for 8 billion people isn’t feasible with the current technology and farming practices of today.
Amazing, you managed to pack so much patently false bullshit into so few words. Elegant.
Says the person who posted a meme showing sharks with human teeth as an argument against meat consumption.
Well since they were trying to stoke conversation, and yoy are conversating now, seems like it worked just fine.
They succeeded in making fools of vegans. Success indeed!
It’s important to note the types of farming that use the most land:
This is a good infographic because:
- It uses the graphic medium to convey information that requires graphics (the ratios of land space and how the categories relate down the list) (lots of infographics could just be a bullet list or a paragraph without any information lost; this one actually utilizes the graphical medium
- It lists its data source
Raising animals consumes even more resources because first you have to grow plants to feed to the aninals.
While in general you’re right, you’re neglecting the fact that theres plenty of land that is suitable for raising animals which isn’t suitable for farming. Specifically: The Norwegian population would have been incapable of surviving historically without a bunch livestock living in the un-farmable mountains most of the year.
Why are you bringing up historical facts? Noones planning to go back in time to make people vegan earlier.
We are talking about now, and right now, could those Scandinavian countries get by with substantially less meat? I’m not sure but quite a few of them are trying limited promotions like a vegan day of the week to promote health.
Meat is not good for us in large amounts, people need to understand that. They seem to with fish, just apply that to the other meat too, just it kills you slower than mercury poisoning would.
I’m not bringing up the state of access to agricultural land as some historical trivia. It’s just as true today as ever before.
The point is that plenty of countries/regions cannot be self-sufficient regarding food production without resorting to livestock. There are several reasons to be, at least in part, self-sufficient. From environmental considerations arising from the transport of food from other places, to food security in the case that conflict or crisis strikes the region supplying you with food, a region which you don’t control.
Stop acting like this is black and white, and that there’s absolutely no reason a country would want the capability of providing for its own people, as if that’s a thing of the past.
I never argued each could try should be self-sufficient. Globalism has made it so most people are capable of eating vegan diets, should they choose to. Countries depending on each other to trade food is fine by me, most western countries do this already.
We also dont need to keep growing the human population globally the way we have been, its alright to slow down and figure out how to take care of the people (and animals) that already exist.
You are the one acting like its black and white, saying its either a ban or not at all. Exceptions will need to be made for many reasons were this to be implemented today: for those who can’t grow or ship their food in, for those that have to deal with the environmental considerations you mentioned, or those with any number of medical conditions that affect nutrition and diet.
If the self-sufficiency thing is so important to you, can you tell me which countries currently meet that label? Is it most countries? How are the self sufficient countries doing overall?
It seems like you’ve misunderstood what I’m trying to say. I’m saying that
A) There are legitimate reasons for a country to want to have some degree of self-sufficiency.
B) The environmental impact of producing meat is hugely different depending on how the livestock gets its food, and the environmental impact of transporting goods cannot be neglected.
C) There are countries with terrain suitable for livestock that cannot be used for farming.
Of course: Almost no countries are, or need to be, 100% self-sufficient, because we have trade, but there is a huge difference between 10% and 50% self-sufficiency. If we are to cut out meat entirely, many places would be incapable of maintaining any notable degree of self-sufficiency.
With you third paragraph, it seems like you actually agree with me. I don’t know how you got from me saying “there are legitimate reasons to produce meat”, to me saying this is a black and white issue. I’m explicitly trying to say that it’s not black and white, both because of self-sufficiency arguments, and because of the environmental cost of transportation. Thus, we need a nuanced approach. This means that we should minimise (or eliminate) the use of farmland for livestock production, without condemning livestock production as a whole, because there are legitimate reasons to have livestock, as argued above.
I’ve seen an operation where someone grew a small food forest on 12 inches of manure spread on an abandoned parking lot, in the midwest.
The idea of what land is suitable for crop use is likely based on what’s suitable for industrial monoculture, a highly inflexible cookie-cutter system, which is a problem in and of itself.
I agree, and I’m most interested in what innovations we can come up with in as people start to care more and more about their health and diet, and learn that animals and humans deserve respect no matter how far away they are.
This is an interesting edge case you’re presenting, but it’s not representative of the overwhelming majority of agricultural land devoted to livestock, and it’s been largely solved by modern supply chains and distribution.
That’s not an edge case, plenty of countries have little to no arable land. Scotland and Japan have around 10% of arable land, New Zealand has 2%. Growing veggies is a luxury, especially in northern parts of the world.
We are always working at solving problems. Right now the world is trying to figure out how to have its meat and eat it too, and spending all of our energy and money on that.
If we decided the problem was figuring out how to grow plants in those conditions, I bet you’d find we would improve that too.
Take a look at a map of Norway. If you find a way of growing crops on rocks that are dozens of kilometres from the nearest road, and covered in snow 8/12 months a year, please let me know.
Well you’d have to make exceptions for those that can’t have their food shipped from better climates and also can’t grow their own food. I’d imagine those peoples lives wouldn’t change much from now were the rest of the world to stop eating meat.
Everyone who has the ability to avoid eating meat, should. Bringing up exceptions doesnt negate that position, its built in.
Yes, but shipping veggies has negligible GHG emissions compared to livestock farming. You’re hung up on a small fraction of livestock production when the vast majority is factory farmed.
Which is why I said “in general, you’re right”. However, that doesn’t take away the fact that most livestock from some countries is primarily raised on land that can’t be farmed.
Speaking of supply chains: We could do the math on whether shipping a vegetable-based calorie from Brazil to Norway is more or less of an environmental burden than a meat-based calorie produced in Norway.
Here you go:
Guy haven’t heard about fish or wild life.
You think it’s feasible for the majority of humans to survive off wild life?
You think it was a default option to export avocados from South America to Sweden?
It’s strange believing we can’t live how we lived for thousands of years because we changed our habits the past 300. Explosive human growth is not a necessity for human life. It’s a necessity for capitalism to thrive.
Of course: if we just let a significant portion of the human population starve to death THAT will result in us living ethically!
Our population has also exploded in that time
Avocados are relevant to what, exactly?
The question of how much energy is used to feed people. Is it more energy efficient to grow an avocado to ship it to sweden, or raise a cow in sweden?
in case you actually want to know the answer:
it’s the avocado being shipped. and by, like, a mile and a half. it’s not even close.
raising cattle is the single most energy, water, and CO2 intensive food production there currently is.
You are spreading misinformation. Veganism requires vastly less land and water resources. Type “land use food calculator” into google
Veganism requires vastly less land and water resources
This too can cause misinformation.
Supporting a vegetarian diet requires less land and water resources.
Veganism requires the overuse of pesticides to the point that it makes the soil become unusable faster and hence needs higher treatment upkeep, essentially causing faster consumption of the limited energy resources we have.
You are spreading misinformation.
You were correct until here, but the land use food calculator will actually only be giving information pertaining to a normal (non-vegan) crop.
Veganism requires the overuse of pesticides
What makes you think that? Why would growing grain for humans require more pesticides than growing grain for animals, for example?
Why would growing grain for humans require more pesticides than growing grain for animals
Growing grain for the vegan brand will require more pesticides. It’s as if noone is really reading.
What you are missing here is that we wouldn’t need to grow more food than we do now, we would need to grow less. Whatever issue you can point at for growing enough plants to feed the world, we’re already dealing with now. We already grow enough plant based calories to feed the world over, we just feed it to cows and other livestock. We would need to use less pesticides (not to mention antibiotics) even if everyone was vegan.
You are also narrowing in on obscure edge cases. As others have pointed out not all problems need to be solved and not all people need to adopt a vegan diet for us to make progress towards sustainability. It would be like worrying about the grid and battery technology and strip mining required to create solar panels etc. in the transition to renewable energy. worthy causes for sure but not justification to keep using fossil fuels.
And people don’t even have to change their moral judgment in the case of doing it for climate reasons. They are free to keep believing however they do. Though I suspect that once people stop eating meat for pragmatic reasons the motivated reasoning behind their moral judgment will collapse.
What I am putting up there, is that, stopping meat is not the problem.
The problem arises with using the veganism buzzword, which will make people think that paying those who advertise vegan stuff would make anything better.It would most definitely make it worse than whole vegetarian (which includes putting up with the insects and worms that come during farming) and might even end up being as much of a burden as the meat industry.
People will think they are doing better, while not actually doing better, which is worse than the status quo.
What do pesticides have to do with veganism?
Sounds like the problem is with pesticides.
None of what I said was misinformation. Turning everyone vegan doesn’t resolve factory farming crops. Chemicals to ensure we can actually grow food, monocultures that are terrible for the environment, limitations of where things can grow.
I’m all for reducing meat consumption, but the utopian world where everyone is vegan has many hurdles to overcome that aren’t just magically resolved. Sure, right now we might be able to reduce land usage for farming, but that is one small aspect of commercial farming under capitalism.
How do people afford food when they don’t live in a place that can grow it? How do we ensure we can continue to grow food when we are so dependent on chemicals to do so? How does a developing country support agriculture without the huge subsidies currently required in developed nations? How do you educate 8 billion people on how to properly get the nutrients they need from new sources of food? How do convince society that GMOs aren’t bad?
These are rhetorical, but moving to veganism requires us to think about these types of things before claiming “but less farm land”
They didnt say everyone needed to be vegan, just that being vegan become the norm. There will always be edge cases, and people can do whatever they want in the wild of course.
We can push forward and try to figure out how to slaughter even more despite all the problems that are coming with increased line speeds, or we can choose a different direction and tackle those problems.
Noone said the solution was perfect, just better. Are you afraid of improving yourself?
Wanna know the most abundant chemical that helps plants grow?
Carbon dioxide.
I’m not sure if you just aren’t aware or are being intentionally obtuse, but that isn’t what keeps the soil healthy or enables plants to grow. Have you grown plants ever?
Sure, photosynthesis takes in CO2 and sunlight and converts that into sugars, but plants need much more than that from the soil and water, which we have to add using modern agriculture.
Growing food on the scale to feed our population now requires crop rotations, fallow fields, nitrogen, phosphates, potash, insecticides, and billions of dollars in agricultural subsidies. You can grow a field of crops once or twice before adding all of the fertilizers and pesticides, but any amount of regular farming requires much much much more than CO2.
I’m familiar with agriculture, having gone to school, read books, and grown plants.
It seems that you are the one being intentionally obtuse. You and I both know that carbon dioxide is kept elevated in greenhouses on purpose because doing so increases the yield of plants grown in those greenhouses.
Yes, other chemicals are necessary to build a plant. The most abundant one however is carbon dioxide. It’s where like 99% of the plant’s mass comes from. And the levels of carbon dioxide in the air change the rate of plant growth.
Nitrogen is also a big limiting factor, but fortunately we’ve found out how to extract nitrogen from the air efficiently using methane, so we can have enough nitrogen fertilizer to feed everyone.
How do people afford food when they don’t live in a place that can grow it? How do we ensure we can continue to grow food when we are so dependent on chemicals to do so? How does a developing country support agriculture without the huge subsidies currently required in developed nations? How do you educate 8 billion people on how to properly get the nutrients they need from new sources of food? How do convince society that GMOs aren’t bad?
Almost all of those are just straight up the same problems that already exist in the current system though?
Except people who can eat animals can live off fishing and hunting, in places where they can’t grow food.
Also, I think he was making some point about food staying cheap enough so people can buy it even if they don’t produce it, but I’m not sure what factor is being expected to make food more expensive.
And do you have plans to resolve them? I didn’t just make that all up to make veganism sound bad. They are realities that need to be dealt with if we made the ethical decision to not consume animal products anymore. With 80% of the grocery store, currently, relying on animal products, how do we replace them? With agriculture. Those problems now only don’t go away, they get exacerbated. Not to mention all of the pollinator populations dwindling.
I don’t have the solutions, I’m just some fucking guy. But if we don’t want more and more people suffering while reducing or removing animal products from our diets, we would have to take many steps before doing so.
And the person who posted this meme is called “MilitantVegan” and straight up doesn’t seem to understand human evolution or science. I’ve only said things that are true, or what my opinion is based on that truth. It might not be great, it might not be true in 50 years, but just watch a documentary on modern agriculture and you will see that these things are our reality. We farm the soil until it becomes barren, and fix it with pesticides and fertilizers for the sake of commercialization. We can’t keep cutting down natural habitats in the search of usable soil to replace those things without completely ruining the lives of animals…the goal of reducing or eliminating the use of animal products.
They are realities that need to be dealt with
if we made the ethical decision to not consume animal products anymore.Ftfy
It’s kind of just whataboutism. I don’t really have a horse in this race, but I find it somewhat unlikely that most reasonable people are suggesting every human immediately stop eating animal products forever. A transition to a world where people eat less of them doesn’t need us to figure out how to feed the people of Longyearbyen right now.
No, that’s a myth. Growing meat is a lot more efficient.
Do you have a source on that?
We have plenty of countries like New Zealand and Scotland which barely have any arable land and yet animal farming is allowing them to sustain much bigger populations than they could otherwise and even export meat elsewhere.
You’re leaving out that they import a lot of produce and non-meat foods.
Literally impossible, due to energy/biomass transfer up the food chain. The bottom will always be the most efficient.
Except that you can’t eat grass.
Most meat eaters are not eating meat that feed on grass. Mostly it’s corn and wheat which humans can eat. If we even made the simple change that banned meat consumption of non grass fed cows that would mitigate 90% of the issue. Also beef will cost like $100 a pound, so
What do you mean most? There’s no corn/wheat fed meat in Europe. And pretty much anywhere else except for US. Growing special food for animals when you have shitloads of free grass is dumb.
The use of corn-based feed for animals seems to be a universal trend. In Europe it’s done less than in the US, but it’s an option everywhere and driven by prices. And those prices do not consider the CO2 cost to the ecosystem.
https://www.dairyherd.com/news/european-cows-eat-more-foreign-corn-global-glut-erodes-price
You’re entirely wrong.
Farm animals are generally not anymore fed by grazing, but rather from crops that have been grown on farm land. The animals use up energy to sustain their own life, so eating the plants directly is actually more efficient.
Here’s a random source, for example: https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
On a cow-calf operation, which is where most beef production starts, a typical cow will graze and/or eat hay for about 12 years while breeding, then get slaughtered pretty much the day they’re shipped because they aren’t worth fattening at that age, they’re just going to ground beef.
The culls (mid-life cows, failed to get pregnant) might see a couple months of their at least 36 month existence on grain before slaughter. Older ones might just go straight to slaughter.
Steers and cull heifers (which is most of what gets used for choice cuts like steak) typically see about 14 months typically on pasture and silage/grain being backgrounded on farm, then about 3 months being intensively fed in a feedlot at up to 80% ration before slaughter.
So, by far, the largest proportion of feeding of most cattle is by grazing or stored forage as part of the backgrounding process. It’s only when they enter the feedlot that it becomes a grain-intense operation, and that part of the production is very short because feedlots don’t make money feeding cows from calf-age to slaughter.
Also, many larger cow-calfs will also hold on to steers and push them, selling them as “fats”, which sees much less intense feedlot experience. This isn’t a huge proportion of the final months of most steers, but is still an appreciable proportion of the market.
The stockyards of Kansas aren’t the typical beef production scenario. They’re just very visible.
Thanks for the interesting info!
basically all beef cattle graze for the first year or so.
Farming in of itself isn’t the problem, rather the process. Too many shortcuts and foreign substances, at least in the U.S.
Vegans who actually believe what they preach spend more time on education and less on shaming or meaningless memes.
This is just posturing.
Does my profile appear to be deficient in educational materials?
Your behavior disinclines me to learn more, tbh.
I think you’re hitting on an interesting concept with regards to activism: that it can be categorized into actions that raise awareness, and actions that provide education.
Take, for example, this story about climate activists blocking traffic in Amsterdam to protest ING’s financing of fossil fuels exploration. Though you may disagree with the methods used in the protest, it’s hard to deny the success of it based on the national attention it drew. Because of it, more people who are opposed to the idea of expanding fossil fuel use are aware of ING’s funding of it.
I think very few people would say that they are now in favor of fossil fuel exploration, or simply do not care to learn more about environmentalism due to the controversial actions of the protesters.
I suppose my question for you is, what would have made you want to seek more information about veganism, and what about this post made you suddenly not want to lean more?
There’s a pretty big gap “making it on the news to raise awareness for your cause” and “mastabatory shitposting on social media”
dude isn’t sneaking video evidence of wrongdoing out of a factory farm… just photoshopping bad dentures on sharks.
I agree that any movement needs both friendly and provocative advocacy to affect change, but the only thing these types of posts accomplish is helping OP feel superior.
Would you level the same criticism against someone posting memes about climate change?
If the posts were this pointless and unthinking, yes.
I can tell you what has led me towards veganism: Friends who knew how to make amazing vegan food. Knowing how to do it economically. Understanding the nutrition concerns and how to work around them. Access to good ingredients. Ways to slowly eat more vegan without rigidly jumping into it. Seeing the environmental impact. Seeing how animals are typically raised and slaughtered. Growing my own veggies and/ or participating in community gardens, etc.
I said I didn’t want to learn more about OP or their perspective. Personally, I already know quite a bit about how to eat vegan… which isn’t, by the way, the same thing as veganism.
Calling this activism is a stretch at best.
Part of vegan education has carnist shame as a condition.
Holy shit why can’t vegans shut the fuck up about veganism
People who mentioned veganism: Just you, Bud.
How can I downvote twice?
Here, take mine since I’m not attracted to my dad. 🤣 (I applied it for you to the other guy… Maybe I am attracted to my dead dad- I do eat meat and that’s obscene according to these vegans)
Did you try just hitting downvote again? 😅
So, I didn’t see OPs username. I heretofore concede that someone did mention it. I hope in time we can both take what we learned from this experience and incorporate it into our respective journeys. More importantly I hope this hasn’t permanently damaged our relationship. I’d hate to lose what we had.
- Spin up your own instance
- Set up a bunch of bot accounts to spam downvotes at people that post inflammatory garbage on popular communities
- We all profit
I’m sorry, my reply is inflammatory garbage? Not the person calling out vegans in a comment under a meme? Yeah, okay.
Look at the name of the person posting. Kinda makes a statement.
Ah, crap. Extremists ruin everything.
Says the person tying to claim humans are supposed to be herbivores.
I haven’t said that?
That paper is making some absolutely ridiculously unscientific comparisons, and immediately ignores the existence of omnivores after flatly stating that most people eat an obvious diet. It’s absolute trash.
I do concede there’s better sources to be found than the one I’ve provided. However I’m not convinced the effort would be worthwhile when everyone hates you just for questioning societal norms such as the mass incarceration and slaughter of sentient beings. The information is out there, personally I think I’m done with the abusive, downright mean DMs and replies. I tried good faith arguments, humor, matching energy, I realize it’s frivolous. People believe what they want to believe and feel attacked when you tell them different. Adam Conover taught me that and I’ll always hate him for it.
those of herbivores are hands or hooves
And then it just completely goes downhill from here… Show me a single fucking herbivore that has hands. 👎
Also you realize it’s possible that creatures can evolve into omnivores from prolong environmental pressure, right? Are you not familiar with evolution? Did you sleep through life science?
Also, you realize that from that same exact source there are thousands of papers and studies contradicting that paper. You might as well become a farmer with how well you pick cherries.
Show me a single fucking herbivore that has hands.
I mean pandas and gorillas have already been mentioned. Koalas. A quick search turns up tons of new and old world monkeys. So I guess lots of fucking herbivores have hands. 👍
Also you realize it’s possible that creatures can evolve into omnivores from prolong environmental pressure, right?
I mean, of course. Would you be willing to concede that herbivorous traits could be selected for over time due to the same factors?
You might as well become a farmer with how well you pick cherries.
That was a pretty sick burn, ngl!
They’re part of the “If I’m doing nothing then I’m part of the problem” crowd.
Otherwise known as “moralizing busybodies”
Find the nearest school bus and just get on.
Ok that was a fun one the first couple of times I heard it. 🙉
Sounds like you need to spend less time online then :)
This comment section is disgusting of imbecility
Those are some fucked up scary looking sharks.
The left two have the same teeth and it bothers me
But… who ever says that? I’ve never heard of this idea presented as evidence for why we should eat meat.
I definitely have.
Human teeth are omnivorous.
We have TWO semi-pointy teeth. Two.
Human teeth also have sharp peaks and deeper valleys within them which is the case for the overwhelming majority of omnivorous creatures. Most obligate herbivores have flatter teeth or will regrow them unless they have teeth explicitly for a particular use case.
Source: You can check out scads of scientific resources on herbivores versus omnivore versus carnivore teeth. I assume you know how a search engine works, but here’s a solid article on differences.
Also my sister has been one of the veterinary bigwigs at several zoos through her lifetime and we’ve had multiple discussions on it.
How is a blog a source? All you’ve given is anecdotal evidence. I have that too. Pandas, sharp teeth, claws, obligate herbivores. Gorillas, sharp teeth, big muscles, obligate herbivores.
I’m sure your sister is a fine veterinarian, and if we’re going to get anecdotal I have a degree in biology and don’t really care what opinion your sister has. I work for real medical doctors who are anti-vax. Someone’s job doesn’t make them sensible.
Errrr… are you looking for me to provide you a primary scientific source for how teeth work in animals with differing diets? Most of that is in veterinary texts (which is an amalgam of info), but it’s akin to asking for a scientific evidence for gravity. What you’re asking is too broad to be covered in a single paper and shows a misunderstanding of how scientific studies focus and function. I was simply giving you a primer since you asked, and that blog is good enough for that (and accurate from the portion I read).
I can point you at papers (such as this one on Tooth root morphology as an indicator for dietary specialization in carnivores) which can help explain part of how food selection works in evolution, but I’m not sure what level of information would satisfy you or why you’d even want it?
Here’s one on how tooth wear affects teeth differently based on evolutionary eating habits.
Here’s one on the development and evolution of teeth.
Here’s one on mammalian teeth in specific.
If you’d like more, feel free to use https://scholar.google.com/ to look for more.
I appreciate the effort given, especially on that last link 😅 However I’m not sure we’re on the same page. I don’t refute any of that. Of course an animal’s tooth morphology can help deduce its diet, but it’s far, far, from the only factor. Tooth morphology can also be a vestigial trait. Body parts don’t just fall off when they stop being useful, like the human tailbone for example. Or the body part may serve a different purpose. In the example I’ve given of the panda bear and gorilla, the teeth are both, they evolved in their meat eating ancestors AND they help tear apart the plants they eat. In fact this is true for almost all mammals, and your sister should be able to back this up, as does the Wikipedia article thrown at me earlier. Meat eating animals have broad flat molars in the back of their mouth. Herbivorous mammals have sharp incisors to help tear apart plant matter.
So yeah, we may have a couple of sharpish teeth, a characteristic we share with most herbivorous mammals. We have a whole lot of other herbivore characteristics as well.
Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores?
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/
The expert I feel expresses my point well enough but the whole article is worth reading. You should send it to your sister and discuss it. :)
That paper is not really a source, it’s a literature review. That’s not inherently bad, but essentially all it does is pull things in from other (if you check, quite outdated by nearly 60 years, which is a lot, ESPECIALLY for biology) articles and say “… and therefore this other thing may be true.” It’s essentially philosophizing.
The paper neither invalidate nor proves anything, it simply makes a loose connection to a strange claim.
The author is correct that we do have characteristics of herbivores. However that is not something anyone was questioning; that’s literally one of the requirements for being an omnivore. We also have characteristics of carnivores. And even obligate carnivores will often have some characteristics of herbivores due to evolutionary holdovers.
The paper is, essentially, saying nothing of value.
Fair criticism. I’ll look harder.
Seeing as how we hunted multiple mega fauna to extinction, I’m gonna go ahead and say that humans have been eating meat for a very long time. Also there’s shit tons of archeological evidence for our omnivorous diet going back hundreds of thousands of years, but… whatever.
I will never understand why people feel the need to try and prove humans are supposed to be herbivores. Who gives a fuck? There’s ample evidence that your can eat a healthy vegan diet, who gives a shit about “supposed to” if you can eat vegan either way?
Okay, Liz. No one is trying to take your steak away, please calm down.
*Also this took two seconds to find: “Megafauna extinctions in areas where they coexisted with humans were most likely caused by a combination of human pressure and access to water."” But also it’s extremely obvious.
That physician is a bit out of his field of expertise, isn’t he?
I don’t have anything to add, but I want to take a moment to applaud your comment. Well done, truly.
I appreciate it! I mod !actual_discussion@lemmy.ca if you’d ever care to join us.
We try to disagree in good faith and not attack each other there.
Obligate. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
In all seriousness, pandas are still bears and can/do eat meat on occasion. Gorillas regularly eat insects and larva, digging up termite and ant nests. Our closest cousins the chimps are not only fully omnivorous, but are accomplished predators. Most herbivores (like ungulates, bovines, etc) will not pass up the opportunity to eat carrion, baby birds, small rodents, and the like.
something else wikipedia agrees…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#Diet
Humans are omnivorous, capable of consuming a wide variety of plant and animal material. Human groups have adopted a range of diets from purely vegan to primarily carnivorous.
But I thought we were talking about teeth.
In the context of whether or not our teeth are fit to consume flesh, no?
The statement was “Human teeth are omnivorous.” Which I’ve given plenty of counter-examples to. Showing me that humans have varied diets does absolutely nothing to further the argument, I can already see that. If you want to feel better about your choices I’m not the one you need to convince.
Got it, you are wrong and have an attitude
So just to be clear; you are pro ‘human teeth are omnivorous’? That’s what you’re saying I’m wrong and have an attitude about? 🤨
Yes? And carnivorous ivories have only pointy teeth.
Carnivorous ivories? The pitcher plant?
Four.
Source?
Your stupid mouth
You guys are so funny! Okay so FOUR semi-pointy teeth absolutely makes us omnivores I CANNOT believe what an idiot I’ve been!
i didnt know teeth was the only factor in if you are carnivore or omnivore or whatever. i thought it was the fact that humans have eaten both meat and plants for as long as humans have been around
Human teeth are omnivorous.
None of us can understand how stupid we are. We’re humans.
Ok that I whole heartedly agree.
Cool source (the second one, the first one fucking sucks I hate it 😁). According to it all mammals have canines, even and especially herbivores. The sabre-tooth water deer for example, cited in your source, has extremely pronounced canines. Still a herbivore. Next!
According to it all mammals have canines, even and especially herbivores
Such as this herbivore? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg2mJ4veuAY
Flat teeth, ate meat.
Panda: sharp teeth, eats plants.
Almost like your argument falls apart at the slightest bit of scrutiny. Anyway
the fact that I can digest meat at all suggests that I am an omnivore
it is wonderful that you are vegan but please shut the fuck up trying to pretend that it is humanity’s natural state
Okay I won’t pretend.
I’ll cite factual studies instead.
"Are human beings herbivores, carnivores, or omnivores? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
Although most of us conduct our lives as omnivores, in that we eat flesh as well as vegetables and fruits, human beings have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores (2). The appendages of carnivores are claws; those of herbivores are hands or hooves. The teeth of carnivores are sharp; those of herbivores are mainly flat (for grinding). The intestinal tract of carnivores is short (3 times body length); that of herbivores, long (12 times body length). Body cooling of carnivores is done by panting; herbivores, by sweating. Carnivores drink fluids by lapping; herbivores, by sipping. Carnivores produce their own vitamin C, whereas herbivores obtain it from their diet. Thus, humans have characteristics of herbivores, not carnivores."
Anyway if you want to pretend that the current factory farm hellscape is humanitie’s natural state, you go ahead because unlike you I have a philosophy of live and let live.
I didn’t even take a stance on what the teeth mean for diet. I was just correcting you lol.
I mean the source you provided literally says the bottom canines are less pointy and pronounced than the top set, especially in humans, so I don’t feel very corrected? You keep at it though, I believe in you!
We’re omnivores, dumbass.
Humans don’t have to kill things with their teeth. Sharks do.
Funny thing is, have You ever seen any human having this kind of teeth naturally? No? Good coz nobody has, maybe (just maybe) as replacements but that would be the really cheap ones.
Humans generally don’t need to kill animals.
That depends on which humans and where. There are still plenty of tribes that live in areas where vegetation simply does not support their population. Luckily, humans evolved to be feed on more things than most things on the planet. We can eat plants, fungi, bugs, fish, etc.
So you’re right. Humans don’t need to kill animals. We can survive by killing just about any living thing on this planet. We can even eat things that would otherwise be super toxic to us by learning how to cook it, peel it, or skin it.
Pufferfish
develops one of the most lethal toxins in the animal kingdom
Humans
Oooh yummy!
Peppers
Develops a chemical that makes them taste like pain for mammals to make it more likely that birds will eat their fruit and spread it farther
Humans
Oooh, spicy! Let’s grow lots of these and breed some to maximize that spice!
Peppers
Wait no–oh nm, I guess it’s a surprise win.
Neither do cows but I’ve seen one too many slurp a Snake like spaghetti and eat baby birds as if they were KitKats
Just because an animal does it doesn’t mean it’s okay for humans to do it
Aren’t we also “just” animals as well though?
(Not defending either side, I just really dislike it when statements suggest we aren’t also literally animals that somehow figured out to think slightly more than others…)
Technically correct is the best correct. We are animals!
Explain why not
Don’t kid yourself, Jimmy boi. If a cow ever got the chance, he’d eat you and everyone you care about!
Just because an animal does it doesn’t mean it’s okay for humans to do it
Then comparing human teeth to animal teeth is irrelevant no? Because what the animals do is irrelevant.
It’s true. I usually eat animals that were killed for me. Thanks, grocery stores!
Nothing does.
Soon we’ll be able to produce all the meat we want without any conscious creatures involved
I’ll just wait until photosynthesis can support brain function.
You sick bastard. Oh well to each his own.
Well, I don’t like meat anyway, so…
Let me guess: fava beans?
Yeah one thing you notice about the ocean is the teeth are designed so if you catch something it can’t get away. Look at anglerfish and baleen. White sharks have hundreds of teeth. Most omnivorous land mammals have teeth just like ours.
This is just a bad comparison, but it is funny.
The joke is making fun of people who call us carnivores, though. Our teeth are very different from land carnivores, as well.
Again, humans don’t kill with their teeth like land carnivores do.
I understand that, but my point was that we aren’t carnivores at all, we are omnivores.
I am not vegan FWIW, I was just responding to the person who was saying that comparing us to sea carnivores was a bad comparison, when comparing us to land carnivores yields the same results. It seemed kind of like they missed the point of the joke which was to make fun of people who wrongly call us carnivores, especially as a response to veganism.
It was all kind of useless pedantry on my part, anyways, so I apologize.
I always laugh at people that never saw a pacu
You must laugh a lot
It’s good for you. More people should.
The secret to happiness is you must laugh and sweat every day.
— Yogi Bhajan
Aww it’s British.
Typical vegan shitposting
Nice, isn’t it?
No. It never is
I fear you have a shitposting deficiency.
Our canine teeth are pretty shark-like. Not all of our teeth are that way though. So going by our teeth, I think we’re omnivores.
The prevalence of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and autoimmune disorders in western society indicates that we are really shitty at being omnivores at best.
Sugar and tobacco aren’t meats. I assure you that heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and autoimmune disorders would still exist even if no one ate meat.
Yes. Because people like you lean ridiculously hard into one way or the other. We need a variety of food sources to sustainability receive all the nutrients we need to live. Eating a majority let alone an only meat or plant based diet is the complete wrong direction, and this is scientific fact. At least with plants it’s possible to find substitutes, however some substitute’s aren’t nearly as sustainable as the vegan agenda tries to lead you to believe, Cough cough almonds cough cough. May, Spirulina save us all.
Is this an argument that humans did not evolve to eat meat? Because those teeth… Well let’s just say the teeth shown aren’t what you expect from an herbivore now, is it? Put those on a cow and they would look just as strange.
Nah, it’s just mocking the people who claim humans have to eat meat, because evolution/god/whatever gave us teeth to chew meat.
It is correct that our teeth do allow chewing meat (since we are omnivores), but yeah, taking the teeth as basis for any argumentation, that’s just ridiculous.
As the only basis, maybe. But they can be an indicator.
