The problem is that the argument isn’t about the bear, it’s about emotions.
The dudes trying to defend themselves feel personally attacked, because telling someone that the average woman thinks they’re more dangerous than a bear feels both unfair and discriminatory.
The people on bear side, encounter enough men that they feel like the average man is more likely to harm them compared to bear.
The scenario is so unlikely to occur that any factual arguments are impossible to prove either way. And the way the question is structured (either accidentally or otherwise) is inflammatory and divisive.
I’m sure everyone can agree that women have to deal with shitty predatory men way too often. And that’s the thought that the question is meant to provoke.
People defending most men aren’t automatically predators and stalkers, please have a little empathy for them, and hopefully they’ll have a little empathy for you
The original question I think was worded a strange man vs a strange bear. Really, the question changes drastically depending on whether strange means random, odd, or some other more negative connotation - all valid interpretations.
Agreed, my assumption was that it means an unknown/random stranger. Not that they were behaving weird. Other people have suggested people think of the worst man/bear.
No one learns anything if they just leave. You’d rather they just get the impression that most women are dumb, hate men, and don’t know anything about bears?
Making the question so inflammatory is a double edged sword, you reach a larger audience, but you’re way more likely to drive people from your cause.
It’s okay for men to have feelings, I don’t get why everyone expects them to be cold calculating machines that automatically have the required knowledge and emotional intelligence to see through this esoteric bear question. Hell, there’s a good chunk of women on side man.
A little empathy and respect goes a long way, you can’t get anywhere just making enemies
Making the question so inflammatory is a double edged sword, you reach a larger audience, but you’re way more likely to drive people from your cause.
It is so inflammatory that it reads as intentional trolling to me. Same energy as “Islam is right about women”. The question wasn’t proposed to generate any sort of insight, it’s just to stoke the flames.
That’s very nice and all - I don’t disagree - but I don’t know what it has to do with what I said.
If anyone assumes they are being personally targetted by a woman’s response to the question as being on “side bear” … They should stop thinking that they are the main character of the story. Though tbh, they are probably telling on themselves since they are in fact the ones without empathy in this equation.
You meant they should stop having emotions? Rather than stop defending themselves?
The statement is making a large generalisation about a group that they’re part of. With every single other group it’s socially acceptable to find that offensive, yet these men are expected to “to take it like a man” and not get upset?
I’m not saying they’re right assuming it’s about them, but it’s easy to see how the mistake can happen.
No, and I don’t know how you’re getting that from what I’ve said.
In the scenario there is a hypothetical man and a hypothetical bear. There’s no reason to self-insert oneself as the man, except as an excuse to get outraged in a #notallmen fashion. A (real, non-hypothetical) man taking offense to the answer by assuming they are being indicted is just showing his own narcissism by making the hypothetical about himself.
There’s got to be a line drawn at blatant misandry/misogyny/racism/antisemitism/etc
There’s no call to calm down and have a rational discussion with Klan members, for example. Racism is unacceptable. Maybe that’s not the best course of action, but it’s how society has decided to treat the subject.
Why does misandry get a pass? It should be just as unacceptable as misogyny or racism or transphobia.
Misandry is as much of a problem as racism against white people. That is to say, it isn’t one. People are punching up or punching sideways, which is fine. It’s how you make positively inflammatory political statements.
Sometimes things are more nuanced than “bad thing is bad”. We have thousands of years of history underpinning this conversation, and for most of that time, women were treated like dirt. It is healthy, natural, and human for an underclass to harbor fear and resentment toward its oppressor class. And if the way that is expressed is twitter memes, so be it.
Sure, it’s more nuanced, misandry doesn’t have as much a visceral impact on men’s lives. But to minimise it to nothing is a bit far don’t you think? That’s the same black and white un-nuanced thinking you’re accusing others of.
Women being able to be shitty people doesn’t make all men saints automatically. There is no absolution of sin by proving the other “side” is bad too
Honestly, thinking about it rationally, maybe we should be having more discussion with Klan members. Instead of alienating them, we could convince them that racism is stupid.
But that’s tough to do. I couldn’t do it.
For our current purposes, I’m just arguing for consistency.
That’s not allowed online! There’s only supposed to be rage bait and cat videos, nothing else! No productive conversations spurned from all of this, no jumping off points, just people being mad all the time and talking past each other endlessly!
The dudes trying to defend themselves feel personally attacked, because telling someone that the average woman thinks they’re more dangerous than a bear feels both unfair and discriminatory.
I’m not a man and not trying to defend myself. I just think the bear aren’t being reasonable (when taken literally and not as a thought provoking comment)
It’s like and introvert saying they would rather fight a gorilla than make a phone call for a doctors appointment. Yeah I understand the point you’re making but beyond the hyperbole, no reasonable person is actually choosing the gorilla over a phone call.
Totally understand your point, I’m not saying that the anti bear side is all dudes defending themselves. Although I should have written that better because it’s not obvious.
I’m mostly responding to the post title of “Either ya understand why most women pick the 🐻 or you are the 🐻” which has the effect of making men feel bad for trying to defend themselves.
I wish more people were as level headed as you in these discussions. Part of my point is that the bear side aren’t being reasonable
I get what you’re saying, I really do. But that’s also true for the other side. I heavily support listening to everyone and looking for the kernel of truth in every opinion.
But that’s not how the vast majority of the population thinks, men and women, especially when issues are emotionally charged. A lot of politics nowadays shows that
These peoples aren’t maliciously going out their way to “undermine women’s voices”, it’s a side effect of defending themselves. Most people aren’t tactically analysing how best to reinforce the patriarchy
If they are so busy defending themselves that they can’t refrain from undermining other people, I’m not going to let them distract from the topic by trying to make it about them.
“Either ya understand why most women pick the 🐻 or you are the 🐻” made it about them. The post title is telling people that they have to agree or they are the problem. Which is categorically untrue and fully shifts it away from talking about generic men, to that singular person.
The post title is already distracting from the topic
You’re right, factually you’re right. That’s not what this is really about though.
Enough strangers are weird and creepy to women they’ve just met in a way that feels threatening and scary. Think about catcalling, groping at bars, first dates gone wrong. None of these are going to be recorded as incidents, even if they should be.
The bear doesn’t matter, the statement is about feelings, not facts or logic. It’s about how women feel unsafe around unknown men
Yes the bear fucking matters, that’s the whole reason why men are getting angry. The question isn’t “do strange men scare you?” We KNOW strange men are scary. We GET IT. We AGREE. We don’t want to be around strange men either!
The problem is that the argument isn’t about the bear, it’s about emotions.
The dudes trying to defend themselves feel personally attacked, because telling someone that the average woman thinks they’re more dangerous than a bear feels both unfair and discriminatory.
The people on bear side, encounter enough men that they feel like the average man is more likely to harm them compared to bear.
The scenario is so unlikely to occur that any factual arguments are impossible to prove either way. And the way the question is structured (either accidentally or otherwise) is inflammatory and divisive.
I’m sure everyone can agree that women have to deal with shitty predatory men way too often. And that’s the thought that the question is meant to provoke.
People defending most men aren’t automatically predators and stalkers, please have a little empathy for them, and hopefully they’ll have a little empathy for you
The original question I think was worded a strange man vs a strange bear. Really, the question changes drastically depending on whether strange means random, odd, or some other more negative connotation - all valid interpretations.
Agreed, my assumption was that it means an unknown/random stranger. Not that they were behaving weird. Other people have suggested people think of the worst man/bear.
All lead to more division and confusion
Well uh, stop? That’s fuckin dumb.
No one learns anything if they just leave. You’d rather they just get the impression that most women are dumb, hate men, and don’t know anything about bears?
Making the question so inflammatory is a double edged sword, you reach a larger audience, but you’re way more likely to drive people from your cause.
It’s okay for men to have feelings, I don’t get why everyone expects them to be cold calculating machines that automatically have the required knowledge and emotional intelligence to see through this esoteric bear question. Hell, there’s a good chunk of women on side man.
A little empathy and respect goes a long way, you can’t get anywhere just making enemies
It is so inflammatory that it reads as intentional trolling to me. Same energy as “Islam is right about women”. The question wasn’t proposed to generate any sort of insight, it’s just to stoke the flames.
That’s very nice and all - I don’t disagree - but I don’t know what it has to do with what I said.
If anyone assumes they are being personally targetted by a woman’s response to the question as being on “side bear” … They should stop thinking that they are the main character of the story. Though tbh, they are probably telling on themselves since they are in fact the ones without empathy in this equation.
You meant they should stop having emotions? Rather than stop defending themselves?
The statement is making a large generalisation about a group that they’re part of. With every single other group it’s socially acceptable to find that offensive, yet these men are expected to “to take it like a man” and not get upset?
I’m not saying they’re right assuming it’s about them, but it’s easy to see how the mistake can happen.
No, and I don’t know how you’re getting that from what I’ve said.
In the scenario there is a hypothetical man and a hypothetical bear. There’s no reason to self-insert oneself as the man, except as an excuse to get outraged in a #notallmen fashion. A (real, non-hypothetical) man taking offense to the answer by assuming they are being indicted is just showing his own narcissism by making the hypothetical about himself.
The literal title of this post forces anyone who doesn’t already understand the issue, to then view themselves as said man
The world needs more people who think like you.
what good is empathy when there is moral outrage and shaming to indulge in?
we all know men aren’t people. only women are people.
I get where you’re coming from, that’s why I’m arguing in favour of more empathy for the men, as well as more empathy for the women.
I just want people to calm down and talk to each other
There’s got to be a line drawn at blatant misandry/misogyny/racism/antisemitism/etc
There’s no call to calm down and have a rational discussion with Klan members, for example. Racism is unacceptable. Maybe that’s not the best course of action, but it’s how society has decided to treat the subject.
Why does misandry get a pass? It should be just as unacceptable as misogyny or racism or transphobia.
Misandry is as much of a problem as racism against white people. That is to say, it isn’t one. People are punching up or punching sideways, which is fine. It’s how you make positively inflammatory political statements.
Most homeless are men, most prisoners are men, most victims of crime are men, and most civilians killed in wars are men
Bigotry is never cool.
Sometimes things are more nuanced than “bad thing is bad”. We have thousands of years of history underpinning this conversation, and for most of that time, women were treated like dirt. It is healthy, natural, and human for an underclass to harbor fear and resentment toward its oppressor class. And if the way that is expressed is twitter memes, so be it.
Sure, it’s more nuanced, misandry doesn’t have as much a visceral impact on men’s lives. But to minimise it to nothing is a bit far don’t you think? That’s the same black and white un-nuanced thinking you’re accusing others of.
Women being able to be shitty people doesn’t make all men saints automatically. There is no absolution of sin by proving the other “side” is bad too
Bullshit, bullshit, and bullshit.
It may be natural but it’s not good. It’s one of those stupid monkey urges that we should be suppressing as evolved, sentient beings.
Sure the statement being so inflammatory crosses the line into unacceptable misandry, but society clearly isn’t ready to just accept that.
I honestly don’t have a solution
Honestly, thinking about it rationally, maybe we should be having more discussion with Klan members. Instead of alienating them, we could convince them that racism is stupid.
But that’s tough to do. I couldn’t do it.
For our current purposes, I’m just arguing for consistency.
That’s not allowed online! There’s only supposed to be rage bait and cat videos, nothing else! No productive conversations spurned from all of this, no jumping off points, just people being mad all the time and talking past each other endlessly!
It’ comes from the same gender essentialism that has served as a feminist to terf pipeline for awhile now.
I’m not a man and not trying to defend myself. I just think the bear aren’t being reasonable (when taken literally and not as a thought provoking comment)
It’s like and introvert saying they would rather fight a gorilla than make a phone call for a doctors appointment. Yeah I understand the point you’re making but beyond the hyperbole, no reasonable person is actually choosing the gorilla over a phone call.
Totally understand your point, I’m not saying that the anti bear side is all dudes defending themselves. Although I should have written that better because it’s not obvious.
I’m mostly responding to the post title of “Either ya understand why most women pick the 🐻 or you are the 🐻” which has the effect of making men feel bad for trying to defend themselves.
I wish more people were as level headed as you in these discussions. Part of my point is that the bear side aren’t being reasonable
Try assuming the person saying it is reasonable.
That’s the problem. Women are reasonable. They have good reasons for saying what they are saying.
I get what you’re saying, I really do. But that’s also true for the other side. I heavily support listening to everyone and looking for the kernel of truth in every opinion.
But that’s not how the vast majority of the population thinks, men and women, especially when issues are emotionally charged. A lot of politics nowadays shows that
Yes. I’m happy to listen when the topic is brought up on its own merits instead of just being used to try to undermine women’s voices.
These peoples aren’t maliciously going out their way to “undermine women’s voices”, it’s a side effect of defending themselves. Most people aren’t tactically analysing how best to reinforce the patriarchy
If they are so busy defending themselves that they can’t refrain from undermining other people, I’m not going to let them distract from the topic by trying to make it about them.
“Either ya understand why most women pick the 🐻 or you are the 🐻” made it about them. The post title is telling people that they have to agree or they are the problem. Which is categorically untrue and fully shifts it away from talking about generic men, to that singular person.
The post title is already distracting from the topic
And men are not reasonable?
that’s cool and all, but most incidents happen with men the victims knew peesonally, strangers are relatively harmless
You’re right, factually you’re right. That’s not what this is really about though.
Enough strangers are weird and creepy to women they’ve just met in a way that feels threatening and scary. Think about catcalling, groping at bars, first dates gone wrong. None of these are going to be recorded as incidents, even if they should be.
The bear doesn’t matter, the statement is about feelings, not facts or logic. It’s about how women feel unsafe around unknown men
Yes the bear fucking matters, that’s the whole reason why men are getting angry. The question isn’t “do strange men scare you?” We KNOW strange men are scary. We GET IT. We AGREE. We don’t want to be around strange men either!