In Germany, the working class wants the far right. Even though that party promises to make life worse in every way for poor people in their party program.
The left, as in die Linke definitely does. It has great approaches to make life better for the working class. Unfortunately their foreign policy is so terrible they are unvoteable for me. A party that is against delivering weapons to Ukraine cannot get my vote.
The center left hasn’t been listening much for a few decades, which is why the far right has been steadily rising from a 20% ceiling to this 35% ceiling just now. But the alliance that won today is not center left - it has some legit left. You can tell because the center and the media have been working overtime to prop up the most divisive figure as Literaly Worse Than Hitler that needs to be stopped at all cost, even by electing literal Nazis.
But this new left is also an alliance, and the current fear is that some of them will jump ship to side with the center right when we all realize that we really can’t form a government, because no one has an absolute majority. Even with those potential defections, the center will likely still not get a majority back. Worst case scenario is the left breaks, no one can govern, and Macron uses an obscure law to take over 100%, best case scenario the left holds and Macron can’t even do that and we have a chance of getting at least SOME improvement.
The socialists haven’t been communicating with the working class for decades. Just sitting around complaining about liberals not listening to them.
The socialist sentimentality around the imagery of red flags, hammers and sickles, photos of Marx and Che Guevara means the working class is going to ignore everything you say. These are imagery associated with the failures of socialism. No matter how many excuses you make about how it wasn’t socialism’s fault the previous iterations failed, you’re the ones putting yourselves in that position by insisting on associating yourselves with those failures.
Liberals are the left side of where the will of the people is at. Because it’s a democracy and not being anywhere near where the consensus of the people are at isn’t going to win an election. You’re just sitting to the left of where liberals are at laying down judgement as if that’s going to influence the people of a country which is the only thing that’s relevant.
Liberals will always be the left side of the will of the people. If you influence the people to move further left, liberals will move further left. But communicating with the working class isn’t what socialism is about in the 21st century. 21st century socialism is all focused on waving red flags to get attention and complaining about how politicians that follow the will of the people aren’t following your will instead.
Fake ass socialists just whining on the internet instead of talking to the working class.
It’s not the politicians, it’s the people that the working class ignores do that. ie. Solcialists. Since the voters aren’t influenced by that bullshit, the politicians aren’t going to influenced by it either.
Socialists are incapable of influencing the will of the people because of sentimentality over symbols of the past. And really why should anyone be influenced by people nostalgic for past failures and just sit around making excuses for those failures?
American exceptionalism was already cringe enough, but now they’re trying to extrapolate their own politics to everywhere else in the world? Holy shit they’re hopeless.
Oh I’m sorry thought it was global ideological movement, not a religious movement with different sects in different parts of the world. Sorry for the confusion.
You are whining about a vocal internet minority, that’s why they’re not doing anything. Just because you see someone complaining about “the man” and calling themselves socialists on lemmy or some other internet forum doesn’t mean they’re representative of the left in general.
Nah fam, I vote in every election I’m eligible for. I choose who to vote factoring in which platform is closest to what I want along with the probability of that party actually being in a position to implement it. I phone bank so politicians will owe me and I can influence them to go further in the direction I want.
None of the text you type on this site influences anything a politician will do. Actually participating in the process does. Typing up essays about how liberals are bad because they aren’t socialists is just useless whining. If you fail to convince the working class that socialism will make their lives better (and if you did that the politicians would fall in line) then you’re accomplishing nothing.
Most “center” “left” parties in Europe nowadays are just Neoliberals (pro-business, pro-privatisation, pumping up asset bubbles and generally bough and paid for by moneyed interest) and hence not really Left and often not even Center.
However all countries in Europe still have real Left parties (even the UK with it’s highly rigged First Past The Post voting system has the Green Party), though judging by the one in my own country (of which I am a member) there’s often this messy mix of people whose leftwing thinking is basically slogans from the Soviet Union (these being mainly people in their 60s and older) and people who grew up in the post ideology neoliberal age for whom leftwing is basically greed but for-the-group instead of the individual (hence you end up with Identity Politics which is a twisted subverted charicature of the Fight For Equality that far too often is dominated by people who are members of a group they were born into demanding shit for their group - instead of a broad push for Equality done on the basis if need an independent of the “group” people were born into, we have competing pulls for getting shit per group, with people said to be deserving or undeserving based on the genetics they were born with, thus far too often rewarding some people who are priviledged but have the “right genetics” whilst not helping those who have real need and yet were born with the “wrong genetics”).
I don’t really know if the present day Left can find a modern ideology and vision that’s not just a “branch of neoliberalism that doesn’t talk of Economics”, though the victory of the NFP in France, lead by Melenchon and his party rather than the old “moderate” mainstream party - called Socialist but not in any way form or shape so, but rather just neolibs plus performatice leftwing talk - gives me hope.
I don’t understand the first line because I’m not a native English speaker, and acronyms sometimes confuse me.
I agree with you, and I am very happy about this victory in France. I was referring to the fact that the working class prioritizes certain issues that the left doesn’t always place at the top of their agenda.
I think it’s time to show that advocating for minority rights doesn’t mean neglecting measures in favor of workers. I believe this is true, but we need to demonstrate it now; otherwise, when the vote happens again in France, no coalition will be able to stop fascism.
In Australia, the centre left has very strong ties with employee unions. They will always advocate for better terms for employees.
Sadly, much of the “working class” votes on the right because they think of themselves as something better than the working class, despite being poor. There’s a phrase “temporarily embarrassed millionaires”.
Further left we have the greens, and indeed they prioritise environmental issues over employee terms.
Mainly because they’re the losers of globalism, and the failed integration of immigrants. They can only afford to rent in areas that immigrants are pushed into for the same reason. So their kids go to school in classes where almost no education is possible because more than half the children can’t speak German, and they are subject to crime and run-down surroundings.
Then it’s easy to rile them up against immigrants, which seem to be the cause of their problems, instead of the upper class that actually caused all this, through the use of weaponized social media.
Ironically, but understandingly, the same immigrants who are also part of the working class, are drawn to the far right as well, because they suffer from the same problems as the German working class, and also feel that it’ll get worse if more immigrants pour into their living space.
I personally know a woman from Hungary who votes far right to prevent more Hungarians from coming in, cause she fears they’ll bring with them the same problems she moved to Germany to avoid.
Okay great, but the far right never has the answers to economic woes. Ask Brazil, UK, Italy etc
Edit also, it’s not the powerless immigrants fault that the neoliberals have consistently shat the bed for so long.
Countries with the Nordic model see a decrease in far right ideology, the problem is plain as day. Ruling class decidedly needs a class to exploit, and they keep the useful idiots busy by pretending their issues are because of immigrants.
No, vote more progressives in positions of power and authority, and ask them to create social welfare programs like those in civilized countries
Because the far right offers simple solutions. That these solutions will only lead to things being much worse and Germany being completely ruined as a result is something they dont understand. Our biggest “newspaper” has been constantly bombarding people with fear and hate for decades and it only got worse and worse. Uneducated people who read that will panic and vote for those offering the simplest solution.
Yup, the right has been more successful than the left in influencing the working class. The fact that a lot of working class get scammed by far right narratives is in indication of how the left is absolutely terrible at communicating with the working class.
If people are hurting, some of them will listen to the arguments of the Far Right - “the blame is those other guys who don’t look the same as you” is quit an appealing argument for many.
There are two solutions for that:
You try to get most people to really think deeply their politics, in a well informed way which puts aside tribalisms, thus reducing the take of far-right arguments.
You remove the causes of the hurt, which at the moment it’s mostly end-stage Neoliberalism (basically the wealth people produce is incredibly ill distributed).
I reckon the first one is pretty much impossible (I mean, it would be great, but it doesn’t work for actual human beings, with all their tribalism and ignorant self-evaluations as not at all ignorant), whilst the second absolutelly is possible (and probably required, if only to stop the Environmental destruction of our planet and guaranteed the survival of our civilization).
And that’s happened after East Germany was consistently fucked over ever since the reunification, leaving a chunk of the country extremely skeptical of mainstream political parties. Would there be people who would still be racist if East Germany had been treated fairly? Some would be, but it wouldn’t define the vote of most of them.
I disagree - the Working Class want’s a mix between the original SPD and the original FDP. Those that want more right for the workers and those that are self employed. Because everyone thinking straight knows, we need immigration. However, we need a new set of rules. The AfD pretty much does play the role of “Bauernfänger” (the literal translation of “Scam” doesn’t work), as we say. All of those AfD Politicians that have actual seats have done shit over the years.
They act like they listen, yes. But their policies would bring ruin for all of germany. The country that exports more than any other country on earth would be completely wrecked if it leaves the EU
In Germany, the working class wants the far right. Even though that party promises to make life worse in every way for poor people in their party program.
Is the left listening to the working class?
The left, as in die Linke definitely does. It has great approaches to make life better for the working class. Unfortunately their foreign policy is so terrible they are unvoteable for me. A party that is against delivering weapons to Ukraine cannot get my vote.
The center left hasn’t been listening much for a few decades, which is why the far right has been steadily rising from a 20% ceiling to this 35% ceiling just now. But the alliance that won today is not center left - it has some legit left. You can tell because the center and the media have been working overtime to prop up the most divisive figure as Literaly Worse Than Hitler that needs to be stopped at all cost, even by electing literal Nazis.
But this new left is also an alliance, and the current fear is that some of them will jump ship to side with the center right when we all realize that we really can’t form a government, because no one has an absolute majority. Even with those potential defections, the center will likely still not get a majority back. Worst case scenario is the left breaks, no one can govern, and Macron uses an obscure law to take over 100%, best case scenario the left holds and Macron can’t even do that and we have a chance of getting at least SOME improvement.
The socialists haven’t been communicating with the working class for decades. Just sitting around complaining about liberals not listening to them.
The socialist sentimentality around the imagery of red flags, hammers and sickles, photos of Marx and Che Guevara means the working class is going to ignore everything you say. These are imagery associated with the failures of socialism. No matter how many excuses you make about how it wasn’t socialism’s fault the previous iterations failed, you’re the ones putting yourselves in that position by insisting on associating yourselves with those failures.
Liberals are the left side of where the will of the people is at. Because it’s a democracy and not being anywhere near where the consensus of the people are at isn’t going to win an election. You’re just sitting to the left of where liberals are at laying down judgement as if that’s going to influence the people of a country which is the only thing that’s relevant.
Liberals will always be the left side of the will of the people. If you influence the people to move further left, liberals will move further left. But communicating with the working class isn’t what socialism is about in the 21st century. 21st century socialism is all focused on waving red flags to get attention and complaining about how politicians that follow the will of the people aren’t following your will instead.
Fake ass socialists just whining on the internet instead of talking to the working class.
Name one French politician who uses that?
Jean-Luc Mélenchon leader of La France Insoumise which is the biggest party on the left in France.
Don’t watch far right propaganda. Even the communist party removed the hammer and sickle over a decade ago.
It’s not the politicians, it’s the people that the working class ignores do that. ie. Solcialists. Since the voters aren’t influenced by that bullshit, the politicians aren’t going to influenced by it either.
Socialists are incapable of influencing the will of the people because of sentimentality over symbols of the past. And really why should anyone be influenced by people nostalgic for past failures and just sit around making excuses for those failures?
? ? ? Sir this is Europe, you’re in the wrong part of the world, you don’t know what socialists are.
American exceptionalism was already cringe enough, but now they’re trying to extrapolate their own politics to everywhere else in the world? Holy shit they’re hopeless.
Oh I’m sorry thought it was global ideological movement, not a religious movement with different sects in different parts of the world. Sorry for the confusion.
You are whining about a vocal internet minority, that’s why they’re not doing anything. Just because you see someone complaining about “the man” and calling themselves socialists on lemmy or some other internet forum doesn’t mean they’re representative of the left in general.
Nah fam, I vote in every election I’m eligible for. I choose who to vote factoring in which platform is closest to what I want along with the probability of that party actually being in a position to implement it. I phone bank so politicians will owe me and I can influence them to go further in the direction I want.
None of the text you type on this site influences anything a politician will do. Actually participating in the process does. Typing up essays about how liberals are bad because they aren’t socialists is just useless whining. If you fail to convince the working class that socialism will make their lives better (and if you did that the politicians would fall in line) then you’re accomplishing nothing.
deleted by creator
Most “center” “left” parties in Europe nowadays are just Neoliberals (pro-business, pro-privatisation, pumping up asset bubbles and generally bough and paid for by moneyed interest) and hence not really Left and often not even Center.
However all countries in Europe still have real Left parties (even the UK with it’s highly rigged First Past The Post voting system has the Green Party), though judging by the one in my own country (of which I am a member) there’s often this messy mix of people whose leftwing thinking is basically slogans from the Soviet Union (these being mainly people in their 60s and older) and people who grew up in the post ideology neoliberal age for whom leftwing is basically greed but for-the-group instead of the individual (hence you end up with Identity Politics which is a twisted subverted charicature of the Fight For Equality that far too often is dominated by people who are members of a group they were born into demanding shit for their group - instead of a broad push for Equality done on the basis if need an independent of the “group” people were born into, we have competing pulls for getting shit per group, with people said to be deserving or undeserving based on the genetics they were born with, thus far too often rewarding some people who are priviledged but have the “right genetics” whilst not helping those who have real need and yet were born with the “wrong genetics”).
I don’t really know if the present day Left can find a modern ideology and vision that’s not just a “branch of neoliberalism that doesn’t talk of Economics”, though the victory of the NFP in France, lead by Melenchon and his party rather than the old “moderate” mainstream party - called Socialist but not in any way form or shape so, but rather just neolibs plus performatice leftwing talk - gives me hope.
WDYM?
The left will always deliver better quality of life for the working class.
The right likes to blame migrants and taxes which resonates with the working class.
I don’t understand the first line because I’m not a native English speaker, and acronyms sometimes confuse me.
I agree with you, and I am very happy about this victory in France. I was referring to the fact that the working class prioritizes certain issues that the left doesn’t always place at the top of their agenda.
I think it’s time to show that advocating for minority rights doesn’t mean neglecting measures in favor of workers. I believe this is true, but we need to demonstrate it now; otherwise, when the vote happens again in France, no coalition will be able to stop fascism.
Sorry, wdym is “what do you mean?”
In Australia, the centre left has very strong ties with employee unions. They will always advocate for better terms for employees.
Sadly, much of the “working class” votes on the right because they think of themselves as something better than the working class, despite being poor. There’s a phrase “temporarily embarrassed millionaires”.
Further left we have the greens, and indeed they prioritise environmental issues over employee terms.
But why does the working class want the far right?
Mainly because they’re the losers of globalism, and the failed integration of immigrants. They can only afford to rent in areas that immigrants are pushed into for the same reason. So their kids go to school in classes where almost no education is possible because more than half the children can’t speak German, and they are subject to crime and run-down surroundings.
Then it’s easy to rile them up against immigrants, which seem to be the cause of their problems, instead of the upper class that actually caused all this, through the use of weaponized social media.
Ironically, but understandingly, the same immigrants who are also part of the working class, are drawn to the far right as well, because they suffer from the same problems as the German working class, and also feel that it’ll get worse if more immigrants pour into their living space.
I personally know a woman from Hungary who votes far right to prevent more Hungarians from coming in, cause she fears they’ll bring with them the same problems she moved to Germany to avoid.
Okay great, but the far right never has the answers to economic woes. Ask Brazil, UK, Italy etc
Edit also, it’s not the powerless immigrants fault that the neoliberals have consistently shat the bed for so long.
Countries with the Nordic model see a decrease in far right ideology, the problem is plain as day. Ruling class decidedly needs a class to exploit, and they keep the useful idiots busy by pretending their issues are because of immigrants.
No, vote more progressives in positions of power and authority, and ask them to create social welfare programs like those in civilized countries
Indeed. The answers they have are easy, quick and wrong, but a peeved populace stops thinking at quick and easy.
Because the far right offers simple solutions. That these solutions will only lead to things being much worse and Germany being completely ruined as a result is something they dont understand. Our biggest “newspaper” has been constantly bombarding people with fear and hate for decades and it only got worse and worse. Uneducated people who read that will panic and vote for those offering the simplest solution.
But they will stop these evil immigrants from stealing my jobs and living of my tax money and destroying my culture…
/s
Yup, the right has been more successful than the left in influencing the working class. The fact that a lot of working class get scammed by far right narratives is in indication of how the left is absolutely terrible at communicating with the working class.
If people are hurting, some of them will listen to the arguments of the Far Right - “the blame is those other guys who don’t look the same as you” is quit an appealing argument for many.
There are two solutions for that:
I reckon the first one is pretty much impossible (I mean, it would be great, but it doesn’t work for actual human beings, with all their tribalism and ignorant self-evaluations as not at all ignorant), whilst the second absolutelly is possible (and probably required, if only to stop the Environmental destruction of our planet and guaranteed the survival of our civilization).
And that’s happened after East Germany was consistently fucked over ever since the reunification, leaving a chunk of the country extremely skeptical of mainstream political parties. Would there be people who would still be racist if East Germany had been treated fairly? Some would be, but it wouldn’t define the vote of most of them.
In Italy too. Must be some sort of cultural legacy 😂😂😂
I disagree - the Working Class want’s a mix between the original SPD and the original FDP. Those that want more right for the workers and those that are self employed. Because everyone thinking straight knows, we need immigration. However, we need a new set of rules. The AfD pretty much does play the role of “Bauernfänger” (the literal translation of “Scam” doesn’t work), as we say. All of those AfD Politicians that have actual seats have done shit over the years.
Is it because they (the far right) listened to them?
They act like they listen, yes. But their policies would bring ruin for all of germany. The country that exports more than any other country on earth would be completely wrecked if it leaves the EU
Only insofar as they can better pander to them instead of serve them.