You’re asking for statistics in bad faith of the argument. Seems like you’re the one slap-fighting here - if you wanted to actually engage in logical discourse, you’d have presented statistics yourself, which you have not.
There’s obviously no statistics on the rate of how many bear-human and male-female interactions happen. One rarely happens, the other happens billions of times per day. We can prove that bears are more aggressive and dangerous than humans though.
In one black bear study 88% of fatal attacks were a result of the bear being the aggressor. Note that black bears are known to be timid of humans, and notoriously not aggressive.
So, statistically even the more timid bear species are wildly more aggressive to humans than humans to bears. Unless you have data that proves that men are more aggressive to women than bears are to humans, this is the closest we get to proving men are statistically safer than bears.
I would love to know how you went from percentages, which you quoted and I replied to, to overall numbers. You realize that’s not what you were talking about, right?
The stats are irrelevant. He’s not concerned with the truth of the matter. No one should be, that’s not what the meme is about. It’s about how women do not feel safe. That’s the entire discussion and all this dross about risk assessment or whatever is missing the point.
So what people are meaning to say is women’s feelings are more important than men’s? I think the statistics should matter xD. But I don’t think bears attack people as often as people are trying to make out.
When it comes to how unsafe women in feel in public yes women’s opinions and feelings matter more than men’s. Just like my feelings and opinions as a white male about what it’s like to live as a black male in America is less relevant/important than black Americans’ feelings and opinions.
Very few people someone gets near enough to be grabbed by want to rape them. Nearly every bear someone gets near enough to be grabbed by wants to kill them. A large number of women feel it is better to be killed by a bear than live with their irrational fear that every man they get near shall rape them. The fear not being rational is irrelevant as the fear is based upon a more than likely chance, approx. 25% is reported, that at some point the fear was justified and not irrational. However those numbers are screwy as folks that get raped are more likely to get raped again.
I’d give percentage chances of each occurring, (the National Park Service estimates the odds of being attacked by a bear are about one in 2.1 million.), but the media seems to only report percentage of gender raped not chance of rape.
Bruh, it’s not even about rape. A dude negatively impacting a woman’s physical or emotional well being compromises their safety.
The odds you mentioned of bear attacks seem a lot lower than the odds of a woman having to deal with shit from men. I say this as a man who worked in the boreal for 10 years and with a pile of construction folks (men and women).
Bears do not want to kill you. They want to be left alone. You’re hinging this on proximity but a bear won’t approach you and a person will. People don’t magically teleport next to a bear den, hence why the average is about 1 death nationwide annually.
Ultimately, none of this matters though. It’s not about the actual risk assessment. And every comment we get bogged down with in that debate is a distraction from the thrust of the meme.
Please show where I stated anything of the desires of the bear. I’m hinging nothing on proximity. You are simply assuming things I did not state. I covered that it wasn’t a risk assessment. Only thing bogged down is so bogged with your assumptions.
No, you did not. You wrote in response to what you pretended I posted. You again are only bogged by your choice to pretend I posted something very different than I posted.
What percentage of women do you suppose have had a man threaten to rape or kill them? Get violently angry at them? Sexually assault them or a friend? I reckon it’s near 100%.
The fear isn’t that all men will assault them, it’s that any man might. It’s not irrational, it’s based on experience. There are men in this thread arguing that women should be arming themselves to stay safe, right alongside men arguing that fear is irrational.
Fuck the men with hurt feelings. Your fellow men have proved themselves dangerous, time and again. Women will treat you like dangerous predators until men as a group start policing their own and building a world where women don’t have reason to fear.
I’d happily discussed what I posted. I have no interest in discussing your imaginary post which you chose to address rather than my post. I also have no interest in discussing anything with someone that wishes to pretend I posted anything other than I did.
What aspect of your post are you interested in discussing? I found your assertion that the fear was irrational interesting, but if that’s off-limits we can talk about some other part…
The post was in response to someone asking, “Do you have those stats?”
My post referenced probability multiple times.
That is the last of the clues I’m going to give. Perhaps try reading it again and looking up the words you are unsure of. Then instead of attempting to derail by arguing your imaginary discussion, consider that what was posted is exactly what was meant, no more, no less. You’ll eventually figure it out.
Nothing is off limits. I simply refuse to play your game of pretending I said something you wish to be angry about.
The issue is how much energy fragile men spend getting all defensive about a dumb bear meme meant to illustrate how women feel instead of asking “why do women feel this way and how can I help with that?”
If you aren’t listening and exploring how to improve the situation and instead spend your time going “hey that’s not fair I’m not like that” and dropping flippant faux-innocent “I’m totally just curious” comments about how it’s “incoherent” (it’s not incoherent at all) you’re missing the entire point. It’s not about you.
Also it’s probably a safe bet that more women are hurt in encounters with men than bears (yes per capita) as bears generally don’t want to be around you in the first place. The entire dynamic is one of avoidance by both parties.
You’re just discarding every opinion as “toxic masculinity” which is actually worse than engaging in logical discourse.
I’ll do everything in my power to empower women and make them feel safe. This thought experiment has unfortunately been detrimental and used to attack men.
“It’s not you” - yes, and nothing I said made it about me at all. See how fast you went on the offense on a completely neutral comment? You should listen to your own advice and listen the points being made equally as much as you’re lobbying others to do.
Where did I do that? I’m talking about the people who do what I described. I did not say there is literally no other opinion. Show me where I said that.
“Logical discourse” please. The amount of “men aren’t bad it’s actually women” in this thread is absurd.
I read some of these, more to get insight into how other people think, but often I come to the conclusion that there is very little I can do to help and that people who behave that way aren’t people I want to help. My ego is just fine, thanks, but blind hostility isn’t something I welcome into my life.
Here’s the thing…if you get upset that a random woman that you don’t know would take the hyperbolic position that they would rather be in the same room as a bear than with you, you’re likely the exact type of man that these memes are talking about. They are meant to expose fragile egos that don’t understand how intimidating they are to women. They know how dangerous a bear is. They don’t know how dangerous you are. That’s the point…
Here’s the thing…if you get upset that a random woman that you don’t know would take the hyperbolic position that they would rather be in the same room as a bear than with you, you’re likely the exact type of man that these memes are talking about.
What the heck? Expressing resentment at the implication that you are more threatening than a bear based solely on gender is evidence that you are, in fact, more threatening than a bear? How does that follow? You don’t need to have a fragile ego to recognize the unfairness of it.
They know how dangerous a bear is.
If they would rather be alone with a bear than a random stranger of any gender I’m going to say they don’t.
The original post was a bad-faith engagement farm that became much more popular than it ever should have been. It ended up bringing up a bit of good discussion and a lot of insane takes.
Once again, it’s a hyperbolic statement. They don’t really want to be alone with a bear. They are merely pointing out that they trust you less than a bear. A bear would simply kill them. What a man could do to them is far worse than anything a bear could do. If you can’t understand that, that’s the entire problem.
Why is this so difficult to understand? Strangers are unknown quantities. A woman does not know who you are and the decades of stats we have on violence against women tells a troubling story. So yeah, she’s going to probably default to a defensive posture if she runs into you in the woods and for good reason. Not because you are a bad person who is a threat to them, but because they do not know who you are or what risk you do or don’t pose. If you are not someone who puts them at risk, then the meme is not fucking about you! You are not assaulting women, congrats! So be an ally for the women who are victims. Listen to them instead of looking for any way their critique is about you specifically.
Some men are dangerous. Women worry about them. If you are not dangerous then there’s nothing for you to be defensive about! An indictment of some men is not an indictment of all men. Some of you really have a hard time grasping this.
So if men are statistically safer than bears and women’s safety is most important, then you agree “bear” is the incorrect choice?
I’m just trying to figure out all these incoherent memes.
Do you have those stats? I would love to actually see a comparison, instead of a slap-fight
You’re asking for statistics in bad faith of the argument. Seems like you’re the one slap-fighting here - if you wanted to actually engage in logical discourse, you’d have presented statistics yourself, which you have not.
There’s obviously no statistics on the rate of how many bear-human and male-female interactions happen. One rarely happens, the other happens billions of times per day. We can prove that bears are more aggressive and dangerous than humans though.
In one black bear study 88% of fatal attacks were a result of the bear being the aggressor. Note that black bears are known to be timid of humans, and notoriously not aggressive.
So, statistically even the more timid bear species are wildly more aggressive to humans than humans to bears. Unless you have data that proves that men are more aggressive to women than bears are to humans, this is the closest we get to proving men are statistically safer than bears.
“Logical discourse” lmfao ok
Forgot to include this in my post
Lmfao what a useless fact.
How many rapes or instances of physical assault on a woman were a result of the man being the aggressor?
It’s almost like there’s more men than bears.
I would love to know how you went from percentages, which you quoted and I replied to, to overall numbers. You realize that’s not what you were talking about, right?
The stats are irrelevant. He’s not concerned with the truth of the matter. No one should be, that’s not what the meme is about. It’s about how women do not feel safe. That’s the entire discussion and all this dross about risk assessment or whatever is missing the point.
Do you think is the nature of males or is this learned behavior?
So what people are meaning to say is women’s feelings are more important than men’s? I think the statistics should matter xD. But I don’t think bears attack people as often as people are trying to make out.
When it comes to how unsafe women in feel in public yes women’s opinions and feelings matter more than men’s. Just like my feelings and opinions as a white male about what it’s like to live as a black male in America is less relevant/important than black Americans’ feelings and opinions.
Wait, you’re saying the meme, instead of saying “women’s safety”, could say “women’s feelings” and still be accurate? That’s quite the take…
I honestly don’t understand what you’re saying so I’m going to say: no, that is not what I’m saying
Very few people someone gets near enough to be grabbed by want to rape them. Nearly every bear someone gets near enough to be grabbed by wants to kill them. A large number of women feel it is better to be killed by a bear than live with their irrational fear that every man they get near shall rape them. The fear not being rational is irrelevant as the fear is based upon a more than likely chance, approx. 25% is reported, that at some point the fear was justified and not irrational. However those numbers are screwy as folks that get raped are more likely to get raped again.
I’d give percentage chances of each occurring, (the National Park Service estimates the odds of being attacked by a bear are about one in 2.1 million.), but the media seems to only report percentage of gender raped not chance of rape.
Bruh, it’s not even about rape. A dude negatively impacting a woman’s physical or emotional well being compromises their safety.
The odds you mentioned of bear attacks seem a lot lower than the odds of a woman having to deal with shit from men. I say this as a man who worked in the boreal for 10 years and with a pile of construction folks (men and women).
None of which is relevant to my statement.
Bears do not want to kill you. They want to be left alone. You’re hinging this on proximity but a bear won’t approach you and a person will. People don’t magically teleport next to a bear den, hence why the average is about 1 death nationwide annually.
Ultimately, none of this matters though. It’s not about the actual risk assessment. And every comment we get bogged down with in that debate is a distraction from the thrust of the meme.
Please show where I stated anything of the desires of the bear. I’m hinging nothing on proximity. You are simply assuming things I did not state. I covered that it wasn’t a risk assessment. Only thing bogged down is so bogged with your assumptions.
I responded to what you wrote. Yes there was some inference based on your words. I’m not getting bogged down in prescriptive nonsense.
No, you did not. You wrote in response to what you pretended I posted. You again are only bogged by your choice to pretend I posted something very different than I posted.
👍
I’m not a bear, but same.
What percentage of women do you suppose have had a man threaten to rape or kill them? Get violently angry at them? Sexually assault them or a friend? I reckon it’s near 100%.
The fear isn’t that all men will assault them, it’s that any man might. It’s not irrational, it’s based on experience. There are men in this thread arguing that women should be arming themselves to stay safe, right alongside men arguing that fear is irrational.
Fuck the men with hurt feelings. Your fellow men have proved themselves dangerous, time and again. Women will treat you like dangerous predators until men as a group start policing their own and building a world where women don’t have reason to fear.
Not relevant to my statement.
Ok. If you don’t want to discuss why post?
I’d happily discussed what I posted. I have no interest in discussing your imaginary post which you chose to address rather than my post. I also have no interest in discussing anything with someone that wishes to pretend I posted anything other than I did.
What aspect of your post are you interested in discussing? I found your assertion that the fear was irrational interesting, but if that’s off-limits we can talk about some other part…
The post was in response to someone asking, “Do you have those stats?”
My post referenced probability multiple times.
That is the last of the clues I’m going to give. Perhaps try reading it again and looking up the words you are unsure of. Then instead of attempting to derail by arguing your imaginary discussion, consider that what was posted is exactly what was meant, no more, no less. You’ll eventually figure it out.
Nothing is off limits. I simply refuse to play your game of pretending I said something you wish to be angry about.
The issue is how much energy fragile men spend getting all defensive about a dumb bear meme meant to illustrate how women feel instead of asking “why do women feel this way and how can I help with that?”
If you aren’t listening and exploring how to improve the situation and instead spend your time going “hey that’s not fair I’m not like that” and dropping flippant faux-innocent “I’m totally just curious” comments about how it’s “incoherent” (it’s not incoherent at all) you’re missing the entire point. It’s not about you.
Also it’s probably a safe bet that more women are hurt in encounters with men than bears (yes per capita) as bears generally don’t want to be around you in the first place. The entire dynamic is one of avoidance by both parties.
Congrats, you pass the bare minimum for human decency, dudes. Accept that part and you won’t spend time having to ‘defend’ yourself.
I’m not like that, so I don’t need to worry about it, type of thinking
You’re just discarding every opinion as “toxic masculinity” which is actually worse than engaging in logical discourse.
I’ll do everything in my power to empower women and make them feel safe. This thought experiment has unfortunately been detrimental and used to attack men.
“It’s not you” - yes, and nothing I said made it about me at all. See how fast you went on the offense on a completely neutral comment? You should listen to your own advice and listen the points being made equally as much as you’re lobbying others to do.
Where did I do that? I’m talking about the people who do what I described. I did not say there is literally no other opinion. Show me where I said that.
“Logical discourse” please. The amount of “men aren’t bad it’s actually women” in this thread is absurd.
I read some of these, more to get insight into how other people think, but often I come to the conclusion that there is very little I can do to help and that people who behave that way aren’t people I want to help. My ego is just fine, thanks, but blind hostility isn’t something I welcome into my life.
Here’s the thing…if you get upset that a random woman that you don’t know would take the hyperbolic position that they would rather be in the same room as a bear than with you, you’re likely the exact type of man that these memes are talking about. They are meant to expose fragile egos that don’t understand how intimidating they are to women. They know how dangerous a bear is. They don’t know how dangerous you are. That’s the point…
What the heck? Expressing resentment at the implication that you are more threatening than a bear based solely on gender is evidence that you are, in fact, more threatening than a bear? How does that follow? You don’t need to have a fragile ego to recognize the unfairness of it.
If they would rather be alone with a bear than a random stranger of any gender I’m going to say they don’t.
The original post was a bad-faith engagement farm that became much more popular than it ever should have been. It ended up bringing up a bit of good discussion and a lot of insane takes.
Once again, it’s a hyperbolic statement. They don’t really want to be alone with a bear. They are merely pointing out that they trust you less than a bear. A bear would simply kill them. What a man could do to them is far worse than anything a bear could do. If you can’t understand that, that’s the entire problem.
IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU.
Why is this so difficult to understand? Strangers are unknown quantities. A woman does not know who you are and the decades of stats we have on violence against women tells a troubling story. So yeah, she’s going to probably default to a defensive posture if she runs into you in the woods and for good reason. Not because you are a bad person who is a threat to them, but because they do not know who you are or what risk you do or don’t pose. If you are not someone who puts them at risk, then the meme is not fucking about you! You are not assaulting women, congrats! So be an ally for the women who are victims. Listen to them instead of looking for any way their critique is about you specifically.
Some men are dangerous. Women worry about them. If you are not dangerous then there’s nothing for you to be defensive about! An indictment of some men is not an indictment of all men. Some of you really have a hard time grasping this.