Yes, the only worth anyone has is their virginity status. It sounds to me like you’re just lonely and bitter at women. I used to be there twenty some years ago and it never did me any good.
I mean, I feel like that goes a lot deeper than some perceived slight by women…
Entertainment, and subsequently our culture, has crafted this notion that if you’re kind to a woman, she’s obligated to be your girlfriend or fuck you, and when it doesn’t pan out like that in reality; young men are justifiably depressed and angry, just… at the entirely wrong thing. This is further expounded by the ever growing disconnect by people in general, a lot of young people feel lonelier than ever and end up turning to shit like dating apps, which are inherently superficial and not a good way to build authentic relationships. Failure on these platforms can lead to young men feeling like they aren’t “good enough”, and when a grifter like Tate comes along to tell them that it’s actually just the women that are the problem, it’s an easy dose of copium to ingest.
Suicide is a multi-faceted issue, and while the struggle to find meaningful relationships is certainly a contributor, I’d wager that the general sense of hopelessness, lack of opportunity, and increasingly fewer prospects for the future are far bigger factors to many young adults going through higher or education or entering the workforce.
Much of what you say, I agree with. But it’s important to note that people are people. There are plenty of women who abuse power, just as there are men who do so, they just often do so in different ways.
But writing off the behavior of abusive women (or even well-meaning women with problematic behavior) as a factor is just as problematic as people assuming it’s all the fault of women. Not only that, when a truth is denied, people often fixate on that truth in an inaccurate way, so downplaying the role of the problematic behavior women can have just exacerbates the problem.
Overall, though, I agree - that though women (and men) can be abusive, it’s important to recognize the larger societal issues that lead people to false expectations and false means of self-evaluation that are basically doomed to failure and leave you open to manipulation.
We’re in a major transition period, societally, and there are a lot of concepts clashing, and a lot of human fallout from that. At the same time, old battles are still being fought, and new answers have yet to be found, or yet to settle into societal roles - and that impacts both men and women, deeply.
But writing off the behavior of abusive women (or even well-meaning women with problematic behavior) as a factor is just as problematic as people assuming it’s all the fault of women.
Not saying I disagree, or that you’re wrong; all people are capable of doing shitty things. But I’m curious what kind of abusive behavior you’re alluding to here… the prompt posed in the original post?
While I typically don’t like the prospect of sweeping generalizations, it seems to me that women have tried to convey these ideas “the nice way” for decades, and it has either fallen on deaf ears, or been met with intense scrutiny by people either maliciously or ignorantly missing the entire point. It’s understandable why there’s some vitriol in the way things are presented today.
[…] and that impacts both men and women, deeply.
100%, we’re stronger as a society if men and women can find a way to work together to deal with the litany of other issues we’re facing. But it’s going to be hard to do that without first addressing the elephant in the room, which is that women feel unsafe in society as a direct consequence of the actions of men.
Not saying I disagree, or that you’re wrong; all people are capable of doing shitty things. But I’m curious what kind of abusive behavior you’re alluding to here… the prompt posed in the original post?
No, although rape and sexual abuse, specifically, and how society handles that, could be significantly better. And what I’m talking about is very, very closely related.
I mean psychological abuse due to unresolved power dynamics - i.e., interpersonal trauma loops. Transgenerational trauma is an example of this, but isn’t the only case.
In any case, it’s definitely a time for change, and although I disagree with the methods or extremeness of some who reach for that, firmness is still needed, and the fundamental ideals of balance, equality, and equitability are necessary. I’m just saying that any voice, of any gender, of any race, deserves to have it’s say. …and that an imbalance isn’t addressed by pushing something too far the other way, just as it isn’t addressed by not pushing at all.
First off, I appreciate your thoughtful responses. I’m not trying to be combative here, but I’m having some trouble understanding what it is you’re trying to get at.
You said:
But writing off the behavior of abusive women (or even well-meaning women with problematic behavior) as a factor is just as problematic as people assuming it’s all the fault of women.
This indicated to me that you felt my response was, in some way, writing off women’s abusive behavior, hence the question about what behavior it was you were alluding to and the subsequent response.
I mean psychological abuse due to unresolved power dynamics - i.e., interpersonal trauma loops. […]
Could you give a hypothetical to describe what you mean by this? You gave trans-generational trauma as an example (which isn’t something I was aware of, so thanks), but I’m not sure how to interpret that in the context of this discussion. Do you mean, for example, an abusive or neglectful mother treating her son in a fashion that might lend itself to misogyny down the road?
This response might be a little spacey - end of day.
I was mostly cautioning that the other guy you initially responded to does have a point - though I also think what you said was relevant and needed to be posted.
As to an example - yes, that’s a reasonable, but basic example.
In general, the mind is rendering some version of the world - a world view that models the world in accordance with your experiences. Parents in particular help create that world view, but anyone who has a significant emotional impact affects that world view in significant ways. If that world view suppresses or has a distorted view of a basic biological tendency - say, sexuality, or a tendency towards masculinity or femininity - then that will have major psychological consequences for the person involved, because they must act in accordance with the outlets they know. This can cause those natural expressions to become problematic.
As a real world example, a friend of mine’s mother had been raped long ago. She dislikes men, fears men, and generally only recognizes the bad behaviors of men. The only truly acceptable male behaviors are to go along with her views and do as she says, but without acknowledging that they are going along with her and song as she says, because controlling is something men do, and women are more empathic.
…while her world view is understandable, that’s still the world view she passed him. Males are destroyers, and the best thing you can do, as a male, is to kowtow, or if not that, don’t do anything, because everything you do is either dangerous or prone to failure and/or week be rejected because of subtleties you can’t grasp.
Suffice it to say, this fucked him up quite a bit and made him kick against any feminine authority for a while once he grew up a bit, was a major kick to his trust in himself, and made it easy to interpret any masculine action in the worst light possible - especially his own. It also gave him a lot of the negative characteristics she conceived of guys having, particularly when he was pressed by a feminine authority.
Through good instinct, circumstance, and good masculine influences, he’s sorted a decent chunk of that out now. But that took no small chunk of his life - and not everyone is that lucky. I’ve also seen people that just pick it up and run with it - something along the lines of “if that’s what you say I am, and you’re who matters to me, that’s what I’ll be, fuck you very much.”
Emotionally impactful circumstances and concepts are what really change these world views, not just good intention or ‘knowing better’. That can’t truly be faked, and often times this impact needs to come from something (internal or external) that can’t be fitted into their existing world view, but also can’t be denied or ignored. In the mean time, a person must act in accordance with their world view.
Edit:
I suppose all of that is about the underlying framework. It’s how we pass information on a very deep and fundamental level. What makes rape and psychological abuse so difficult is that most people don’t have the ability to access that world view as a normal part of thought. It’s automatic. Someone comes along, uses and abuses you, and moves on (or doesn’t). And that becomes a part of your world view, whether you want it to or not. Every time you push it off or dwell on it, it gets affirmed, and that means it often grows in time. Regardless of whether or not how you feel is true, it must be felt. The possibility must be addressed, reasoned and felt through, consciously and unconsciously, before you can feel clean again. And in the mean time, whether or not you land in the same role in it, you pass along that same world view.
Because dumb fucks like you keep confusing the point and acting like this is an attack on them. Rather than have a shred of empathy for women and understand how common sexual assault is you’d rather bitch and moan how your a man you swear you ain’t never done that.
Bitch if you ain’t doing it then it ain’t about you. But when a woman walking down the street she cant see through your eyes.
Boo hoo, men feel victimized because women are scared of men. You should be fucking angry at the men who made it this way you fucking skunk
“No u” ain’t it chief. If anyone turns into a Tate wannabe over this, that’s the fault of the dude, not the ladies avoiding Tate wannabes. You are literally victim blaming.
Delve into threads on this topic on mainstream social media and half of it is misandry, obviously it’s leaving an impression on young people who already feel alienated
Try to put yourself in the shoes of some dude born in say, 2005
You already know you’ll never have a house, retirement, a family, anything really
And now you read a thread on the bear debate and realize that odds are you are going to be a virgin forever
I spent my formative years browsing 4chan and seeing the worst shit festering in the minds of a rejected people. I am also black (If you don’t know why that’s relevant, I envy you). Do not talk to me about what turns a person toxic.
It is not up to women to be nice to us because we’re sensitive and have chips on our shoulders. It’s up to other men to help us navigate these emotions without blaming anyone else for feeling the way we do. Be better than the bear, dude. That’s all you have to do. Don’t threaten women, and don’t get upset with women for feeling threatened. That’s it. That’s all. Nothing else is needed. If you are doing those things, this message is not for you. If you react with hostility, you prove that you are a problem, and you ought to reflect on why you became this way, again, without blaming what women say online on your toxic attitudes. Do not sympathize with men who think women are lesser creatures incapable of having their own experiences. If a woman says something you don’t agree with that is perfectly fine. If they tell you they’re scared, you don’t have the right to tell them they’re stupid or in the wrong for being scared though. All I’m seeing is disrespect, mansplaining, and whataboutism from men, and it is shameful.
Oh no, a meme is missing context and nuances and instead is for people who already know those things? The travesty. Get the meme council on this immediately.
Hmm I wonder why young men are either watching Andrew Tate or killing themselves
Because women are scared of them?
This thought experiment really shows how worthless men are in modern society (or at least that’s how society perceives them)
um ackshually it’s not ALL men and you’re a MisAnDRisT for saying that ☝️🤓
(I’ve always wanted to know what it felt like to say that stupid fucking line unironically lol)
it shows how worthless the men getting triggered are.
snowflakey men - like you - who are up and down this thread proving to women exactly why they are making the perfect choice choosing the bear.
the good men - who are also present in this thread - are doing an excellent job making the rest of you meltdown into the triggered babies you are.
Men are actually worthless though just look at stats on how many adults are virgins today
This gender warfare stuff just creates more incels and that’s all I was trying to point out
Yes, the only worth anyone has is their virginity status. It sounds to me like you’re just lonely and bitter at women. I used to be there twenty some years ago and it never did me any good.
I mean, I feel like that goes a lot deeper than some perceived slight by women…
Entertainment, and subsequently our culture, has crafted this notion that if you’re kind to a woman, she’s obligated to be your girlfriend or fuck you, and when it doesn’t pan out like that in reality; young men are justifiably depressed and angry, just… at the entirely wrong thing. This is further expounded by the ever growing disconnect by people in general, a lot of young people feel lonelier than ever and end up turning to shit like dating apps, which are inherently superficial and not a good way to build authentic relationships. Failure on these platforms can lead to young men feeling like they aren’t “good enough”, and when a grifter like Tate comes along to tell them that it’s actually just the women that are the problem, it’s an easy dose of copium to ingest.
Suicide is a multi-faceted issue, and while the struggle to find meaningful relationships is certainly a contributor, I’d wager that the general sense of hopelessness, lack of opportunity, and increasingly fewer prospects for the future are far bigger factors to many young adults going through higher or education or entering the workforce.
Much of what you say, I agree with. But it’s important to note that people are people. There are plenty of women who abuse power, just as there are men who do so, they just often do so in different ways.
But writing off the behavior of abusive women (or even well-meaning women with problematic behavior) as a factor is just as problematic as people assuming it’s all the fault of women. Not only that, when a truth is denied, people often fixate on that truth in an inaccurate way, so downplaying the role of the problematic behavior women can have just exacerbates the problem.
Overall, though, I agree - that though women (and men) can be abusive, it’s important to recognize the larger societal issues that lead people to false expectations and false means of self-evaluation that are basically doomed to failure and leave you open to manipulation.
We’re in a major transition period, societally, and there are a lot of concepts clashing, and a lot of human fallout from that. At the same time, old battles are still being fought, and new answers have yet to be found, or yet to settle into societal roles - and that impacts both men and women, deeply.
Not saying I disagree, or that you’re wrong; all people are capable of doing shitty things. But I’m curious what kind of abusive behavior you’re alluding to here… the prompt posed in the original post?
While I typically don’t like the prospect of sweeping generalizations, it seems to me that women have tried to convey these ideas “the nice way” for decades, and it has either fallen on deaf ears, or been met with intense scrutiny by people either maliciously or ignorantly missing the entire point. It’s understandable why there’s some vitriol in the way things are presented today.
100%, we’re stronger as a society if men and women can find a way to work together to deal with the litany of other issues we’re facing. But it’s going to be hard to do that without first addressing the elephant in the room, which is that women feel unsafe in society as a direct consequence of the actions of men.
No, although rape and sexual abuse, specifically, and how society handles that, could be significantly better. And what I’m talking about is very, very closely related.
I mean psychological abuse due to unresolved power dynamics - i.e., interpersonal trauma loops. Transgenerational trauma is an example of this, but isn’t the only case.
In any case, it’s definitely a time for change, and although I disagree with the methods or extremeness of some who reach for that, firmness is still needed, and the fundamental ideals of balance, equality, and equitability are necessary. I’m just saying that any voice, of any gender, of any race, deserves to have it’s say. …and that an imbalance isn’t addressed by pushing something too far the other way, just as it isn’t addressed by not pushing at all.
First off, I appreciate your thoughtful responses. I’m not trying to be combative here, but I’m having some trouble understanding what it is you’re trying to get at.
You said:
This indicated to me that you felt my response was, in some way, writing off women’s abusive behavior, hence the question about what behavior it was you were alluding to and the subsequent response.
Could you give a hypothetical to describe what you mean by this? You gave trans-generational trauma as an example (which isn’t something I was aware of, so thanks), but I’m not sure how to interpret that in the context of this discussion. Do you mean, for example, an abusive or neglectful mother treating her son in a fashion that might lend itself to misogyny down the road?
This response might be a little spacey - end of day.
I was mostly cautioning that the other guy you initially responded to does have a point - though I also think what you said was relevant and needed to be posted.
As to an example - yes, that’s a reasonable, but basic example.
In general, the mind is rendering some version of the world - a world view that models the world in accordance with your experiences. Parents in particular help create that world view, but anyone who has a significant emotional impact affects that world view in significant ways. If that world view suppresses or has a distorted view of a basic biological tendency - say, sexuality, or a tendency towards masculinity or femininity - then that will have major psychological consequences for the person involved, because they must act in accordance with the outlets they know. This can cause those natural expressions to become problematic.
As a real world example, a friend of mine’s mother had been raped long ago. She dislikes men, fears men, and generally only recognizes the bad behaviors of men. The only truly acceptable male behaviors are to go along with her views and do as she says, but without acknowledging that they are going along with her and song as she says, because controlling is something men do, and women are more empathic.
…while her world view is understandable, that’s still the world view she passed him. Males are destroyers, and the best thing you can do, as a male, is to kowtow, or if not that, don’t do anything, because everything you do is either dangerous or prone to failure and/or week be rejected because of subtleties you can’t grasp.
Suffice it to say, this fucked him up quite a bit and made him kick against any feminine authority for a while once he grew up a bit, was a major kick to his trust in himself, and made it easy to interpret any masculine action in the worst light possible - especially his own. It also gave him a lot of the negative characteristics she conceived of guys having, particularly when he was pressed by a feminine authority.
Through good instinct, circumstance, and good masculine influences, he’s sorted a decent chunk of that out now. But that took no small chunk of his life - and not everyone is that lucky. I’ve also seen people that just pick it up and run with it - something along the lines of “if that’s what you say I am, and you’re who matters to me, that’s what I’ll be, fuck you very much.”
Emotionally impactful circumstances and concepts are what really change these world views, not just good intention or ‘knowing better’. That can’t truly be faked, and often times this impact needs to come from something (internal or external) that can’t be fitted into their existing world view, but also can’t be denied or ignored. In the mean time, a person must act in accordance with their world view.
Edit:
I suppose all of that is about the underlying framework. It’s how we pass information on a very deep and fundamental level. What makes rape and psychological abuse so difficult is that most people don’t have the ability to access that world view as a normal part of thought. It’s automatic. Someone comes along, uses and abuses you, and moves on (or doesn’t). And that becomes a part of your world view, whether you want it to or not. Every time you push it off or dwell on it, it gets affirmed, and that means it often grows in time. Regardless of whether or not how you feel is true, it must be felt. The possibility must be addressed, reasoned and felt through, consciously and unconsciously, before you can feel clean again. And in the mean time, whether or not you land in the same role in it, you pass along that same world view.
Because dumb fucks like you keep confusing the point and acting like this is an attack on them. Rather than have a shred of empathy for women and understand how common sexual assault is you’d rather bitch and moan how your a man you swear you ain’t never done that.
Bitch if you ain’t doing it then it ain’t about you. But when a woman walking down the street she cant see through your eyes.
Boo hoo, men feel victimized because women are scared of men. You should be fucking angry at the men who made it this way you fucking skunk
Men are actually kind of worthless though, I’m not angry about it and I’m not sure why you’re so hostile lol
Dude, ironically this type of demeanor is why women are scared of men hahaha
“No u” ain’t it chief. If anyone turns into a Tate wannabe over this, that’s the fault of the dude, not the ladies avoiding Tate wannabes. You are literally victim blaming.
Delve into threads on this topic on mainstream social media and half of it is misandry, obviously it’s leaving an impression on young people who already feel alienated
Try to put yourself in the shoes of some dude born in say, 2005
You already know you’ll never have a house, retirement, a family, anything really
And now you read a thread on the bear debate and realize that odds are you are going to be a virgin forever
I spent my formative years browsing 4chan and seeing the worst shit festering in the minds of a rejected people. I am also black (If you don’t know why that’s relevant, I envy you). Do not talk to me about what turns a person toxic.
It is not up to women to be nice to us because we’re sensitive and have chips on our shoulders. It’s up to other men to help us navigate these emotions without blaming anyone else for feeling the way we do. Be better than the bear, dude. That’s all you have to do. Don’t threaten women, and don’t get upset with women for feeling threatened. That’s it. That’s all. Nothing else is needed. If you are doing those things, this message is not for you. If you react with hostility, you prove that you are a problem, and you ought to reflect on why you became this way, again, without blaming what women say online on your toxic attitudes. Do not sympathize with men who think women are lesser creatures incapable of having their own experiences. If a woman says something you don’t agree with that is perfectly fine. If they tell you they’re scared, you don’t have the right to tell them they’re stupid or in the wrong for being scared though. All I’m seeing is disrespect, mansplaining, and whataboutism from men, and it is shameful.
Real women in real life don’t think like this meme.
If you’re reading this thread and think it makes u an incel u were already an incel.
All women in my life say bear including my gf of 10 years, but everyone I know is pretty left wing
If you had a 1 in 6 chance of being raped in your life, you’d take precautions too.
If you had a 1in1 chance of being eaten by a bear this meme says you’d take it anyway…
Bear won’t rape you.
Yeah I’m not disagreeing with that, I’m literally saying that men are worthless in today’s society
If that’s your point this meme doesn’t make it.
Oh no, a meme is missing context and nuances and instead is for people who already know those things? The travesty. Get the meme council on this immediately.
Clown
Because they stupid?