Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism were both movements born out of anti-colonialism and opposed western political involvement, but they are not the same and have different history. There is no monolith in the middle east. Neither a Muslim nor an Arab Monolith. If you think all Muslims or all Arab people think the same you’re just being racist.
Hamas, while associated with the Muslim Brotherhood in the past, is not the same as the Muslim Brotherhood.
When Israel occupied the Palestinian territories in 1967, the Muslim Brotherhood members there did not take active part in the resistance, preferring to focus on social-religious reform and on restoring Islamic values. This outlook changed in the early 1980s, and Islamic organizations became more involved in Palestinian politics. The driving force behind this transformation was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a Palestinian refugee from Al-Jura. Of humble origins and quadriplegic, he became one of the Muslim Brotherhood’s leaders in Gaza. His charisma and conviction brought him a loyal group of followers, upon whom he depended for everything from feeding him and transporting him to and from events to communicating his strategy to the public. In 1973, Yassin founded the social-religious charity Mujama al-Islamiya (“Islamic center”) in Gaza as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.
The idea of Hamas began to take form on December 10, 1987, when several members of the Brotherhood convened the day after an incident in which an Israeli army truck crashed into a car at a Gaza checkpoint, killing four Palestinian day-workers, the impetus of the First Intifada. The group met at Yassin’s house to strategize on how to maximize the incident’s impact in spreading nationalist sentiments and sparking public demonstrations. A leaflet issued on December 14 calling for resistance is considered its first public intervention, though the name Hamas itself was not used until January 1988
To many Palestinians, Hamas represented a more authentic engagement with their national aspirations. This perception arose because Hamas offered an Islamic interpretation of the original goals of the secular PLO, focusing on armed struggle to liberate all of Palestine. This approach contrasted with the PLO’s eventual acceptance of territorial compromise, which involved settling for a smaller portion of Mandatory Palestine. Hamas’s formal establishment came a month after the PLO and other intifada leaders issued a 14-point declaration in January 1988 advocating for the coexistence of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.
Again with the link spam of things I already know.
I don’t think that all violent Islamist extremists are the same. I think they are substantially the same, not distinguishable in meaningful ways. As I said, the only difference is who gets to be the caliphate. For example, while ISIS and Hamas leadership are formally at war, Hamas just can’t stop getting its fighters to join ISIS, too.
Th really don’t though. You’re drawing your conclusions from the facts and I think your conclusions are shallow and poorly reasoned, and I think that you often cite to other people who draw the same conclusions as you because it makes you feel good.
We don’t have to agree it’s fine. I can still respect you. You’re disgusted by 30,000 deaths, mostly innocent civilians; you’re probably a very decent and justice-minded person, instincts that must serve you well. They are my instincts too, and serve me well.
I’m not interested in the chicken or the egg debate. though because it’s not relevant to the next hundred years. I’m interested in not having a hot war with Iran and not having the worlds dictatorships laughing while they wipe democracies off the map, which is what happens if Hamas gets its way. Start there.
Obviously Hamas is not going to get its way. Its outmatched in every sense except it’s martyrous zeal, and your instinct is what they count on as their only path to continued existence.
Again I ask, what did they think would be the result of October 7?
Advocating for a One-State or Two-State Solution is not “wiping a Democracy off the map,” it’s advocating for Palestinian people to have basic human and civil rights. If you think that Israel committing Apartheid or ethnic cleansing are ‘shallow and poorly reasoned conclusions’ then you haven’t taken a look at the facts. This has nothing to do with instincts, it has to do with media literacy. That’s why as a serious source to learn more about the conflict, I point to Ilan Pappe or Avi Shlaim or Nur Masalha. They are magnitudes more knowledgeable about the history of Israel-Palestine.
Hamas officials said shortly following the attack that it was a response to the Israeli occupation, blockade of the Gaza Strip, Israeli settler violence against Palestinians, restrictions on the movement of Palestinians, and imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians.
Mohammad Deif, the head of Hamas’s military wing, the Qassam Brigades, said in a recorded message on 7 October that it was in response to what he called the “desecration” of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Israel killing and wounding hundreds of Palestinians in 2023. He called on Palestinians and Arab Israelis to “expel the occupiers and demolish the walls”. Deif also called on “Muslims everywhere to launch an attack” against Israel and to urged supporters to “kill them [the enemy] wherever you may find them”. He continued, “in light of the continuing crimes against our people, in light of the orgy of occupation and its denial of international laws and resolutions, and in light of American and western [sic] support, we’ve decided to put an end to all this, so that the enemy understands that he can no longer revel without being held to account.”
The answers to this conflict are not in the history. I don’t care who came first, the chicken or the egg. Besides, if you dig deep enough, the oldest artifacts and recorded history in the entire region are Judiac.
Hamas is in charge of Gaza. The thing preventing Gaza from having what it needs is Hamas. They can’t follow zero international laws and norms whatsoever and expect to be treated like a legitimate state actor. They are not. Hamas is a terrorist organization and the present hostilities will not end until Hamas is gone. Hopefully they stop taking innocent people with them.
The answers? No, the context is. That context being setter colonialism, occupation, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid. This isn’t a chicken and egg scenario. No ancestral claim to any land justifies ethnic cleansing of the native population living on that land.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1947-49 was deliberate, the concept of Transfer is fundamental to zionism. It didn’t matter that the Palestinian leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State.
Gaza has been under occupation, Hamas has been internally governing Gaza since 2007, under the Blockade occupation of Israel. Hamas is a resistance movement that has done acts of terrorism, yes. That doesn’t change the fact that Hamas and other Armed resistance groups are the only ones fighting back against the Israeli occupation, a right which they have under international law. That doesn’t exempt them from war crimes, which is why you see Human Rights Orgs report on them when committed.
Resistance movements only get bigger as the oppression worsens, like it is now in both the West Bank and much more so in Gaza.
What do you know about what it’s like to live under Israeli occupation? If you don’t understand that, you’ll never understand why people choose to violently resist the occupation.
Gaza is not under occupation. Occupation is something that one country does to another. Gaza is not a country. Therefore Gaza is not occupied. See how that works?
Occupation is something that involves an opposing military force. Gaza doesn’t have an opposing military force. It has terrorists.
A military force respects international law and wears uniforms, it doesn’t actually and for-real target civilians indiscriminately with no pretext of military targeting.
Gaza isn’t a country and doesn’t have the rights of a country. Period. And it never will be, because of Hamas’s visionary leadership. They need to free the hostages and stop treating Gaza and everyone in it as one giant human shield. Where you’re from do you have any expressions such mess with the bull get the horns? Live by the sword die by the sword? Don’t start nothing won’t be nothing? Reap what you sow?
I understand why they resist and have a lot of sympathy with their perceived plight. And I supported a two-state solution until recently, when it became absolutely clear that Hamas will not evolve, and will not permit peace in Gaza as long as it remains. It is a far right authoritarian movement with no loyalty to the people of Gaza. The people there should have fought Hamas instead of Israel, maybe they wouldn’t be wallowing in rubble right now.
Hamas was born out of pan Islamism. Israel didn’t invent it. It’s hundreds of years old.
Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism were both movements born out of anti-colonialism and opposed western political involvement, but they are not the same and have different history. There is no monolith in the middle east. Neither a Muslim nor an Arab Monolith. If you think all Muslims or all Arab people think the same you’re just being racist.
Hamas, while associated with the Muslim Brotherhood in the past, is not the same as the Muslim Brotherhood.
Again with the link spam of things I already know.
I don’t think that all violent Islamist extremists are the same. I think they are substantially the same, not distinguishable in meaningful ways. As I said, the only difference is who gets to be the caliphate. For example, while ISIS and Hamas leadership are formally at war, Hamas just can’t stop getting its fighters to join ISIS, too.
That’s the thing, the links I provide are to show exactly what you’re getting wrong.
Th really don’t though. You’re drawing your conclusions from the facts and I think your conclusions are shallow and poorly reasoned, and I think that you often cite to other people who draw the same conclusions as you because it makes you feel good.
We don’t have to agree it’s fine. I can still respect you. You’re disgusted by 30,000 deaths, mostly innocent civilians; you’re probably a very decent and justice-minded person, instincts that must serve you well. They are my instincts too, and serve me well.
I’m not interested in the chicken or the egg debate. though because it’s not relevant to the next hundred years. I’m interested in not having a hot war with Iran and not having the worlds dictatorships laughing while they wipe democracies off the map, which is what happens if Hamas gets its way. Start there.
Obviously Hamas is not going to get its way. Its outmatched in every sense except it’s martyrous zeal, and your instinct is what they count on as their only path to continued existence.
Again I ask, what did they think would be the result of October 7?
Advocating for a One-State or Two-State Solution is not “wiping a Democracy off the map,” it’s advocating for Palestinian people to have basic human and civil rights. If you think that Israel committing Apartheid or ethnic cleansing are ‘shallow and poorly reasoned conclusions’ then you haven’t taken a look at the facts. This has nothing to do with instincts, it has to do with media literacy. That’s why as a serious source to learn more about the conflict, I point to Ilan Pappe or Avi Shlaim or Nur Masalha. They are magnitudes more knowledgeable about the history of Israel-Palestine.
We can find quickly in the wiki:
The answers to this conflict are not in the history. I don’t care who came first, the chicken or the egg. Besides, if you dig deep enough, the oldest artifacts and recorded history in the entire region are Judiac.
Hamas is in charge of Gaza. The thing preventing Gaza from having what it needs is Hamas. They can’t follow zero international laws and norms whatsoever and expect to be treated like a legitimate state actor. They are not. Hamas is a terrorist organization and the present hostilities will not end until Hamas is gone. Hopefully they stop taking innocent people with them.
The answers? No, the context is. That context being setter colonialism, occupation, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid. This isn’t a chicken and egg scenario. No ancestral claim to any land justifies ethnic cleansing of the native population living on that land.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1947-49 was deliberate, the concept of Transfer is fundamental to zionism. It didn’t matter that the Palestinian leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State.
The Israeli occupation of the rest of historical Palestine in 1967 was deliberate. For half a century, Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip has resulted in systematic human rights violations against Palestinians living there. with the goal of further annexation while excluding Palestinians.
Gaza has been under occupation, Hamas has been internally governing Gaza since 2007, under the Blockade occupation of Israel. Hamas is a resistance movement that has done acts of terrorism, yes. That doesn’t change the fact that Hamas and other Armed resistance groups are the only ones fighting back against the Israeli occupation, a right which they have under international law. That doesn’t exempt them from war crimes, which is why you see Human Rights Orgs report on them when committed.
Resistance movements only get bigger as the oppression worsens, like it is now in both the West Bank and much more so in Gaza.
What do you know about what it’s like to live under Israeli occupation? If you don’t understand that, you’ll never understand why people choose to violently resist the occupation.
I really don’t see how any of this is relevant.
Gaza is not under occupation. Occupation is something that one country does to another. Gaza is not a country. Therefore Gaza is not occupied. See how that works?
Occupation is something that involves an opposing military force. Gaza doesn’t have an opposing military force. It has terrorists.
A military force respects international law and wears uniforms, it doesn’t actually and for-real target civilians indiscriminately with no pretext of military targeting.
Gaza isn’t a country and doesn’t have the rights of a country. Period. And it never will be, because of Hamas’s visionary leadership. They need to free the hostages and stop treating Gaza and everyone in it as one giant human shield. Where you’re from do you have any expressions such mess with the bull get the horns? Live by the sword die by the sword? Don’t start nothing won’t be nothing? Reap what you sow?
I understand why they resist and have a lot of sympathy with their perceived plight. And I supported a two-state solution until recently, when it became absolutely clear that Hamas will not evolve, and will not permit peace in Gaza as long as it remains. It is a far right authoritarian movement with no loyalty to the people of Gaza. The people there should have fought Hamas instead of Israel, maybe they wouldn’t be wallowing in rubble right now.