We’re pretty dense, two critically acclaimed series and a couple shitty, live-action projects isn’t gonna cut it.
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I mean most of this shit is pretty unpopular with Americans. Unfortunately the US has been sliding deeper and deeper into fascism for a while now, so what we want is less and less important.
I like how some people are claiming americans are aware of this lol
If most americans were sufficiently aware and organizing against it accordingly (if they’re not organizing, they’re not aware enough) the imperialist gov would already have been toppled.
I’m American and am aware of this. Explain that!
The One True AmericanTM
The alternative:
The representative of no one AmericanTM
Some zoomers and some millennials know it. Boomers don’t know or actually think it’s a good thing, with some rare exceptions.
Either way your take is extremely juvenile and simplistic. There’s a lot more at play with revolutions than people knowing their country did something bad. It takes a lot more than that to get people off their ass, with very few exceptions historically, and even those exceptions are usually led by rich people looking out for themselves.
People need to have their own livelihoods threatened before they do anything. And there are always power systems in place that deliberately make it hard for people to organize.
Power. Your fantasy assumes the weight of mere knowing outweighs the power wielded against the citizenry. No revolution started with the whole citizenry waking up. You know why. If not, read more and be less disingenuous.
No revolution started with the whole citizenry waking up
Obviously not everyone lmao.
What every revolution has had is people informing others about what the issue is (often by pamphlets, news, etc), what needs to be done, and organizing. The vast majority of successful revolutions are only those that had organized revolutionaries.
I like how some people are claiming americans are aware of this lol
What every revolution has had is people informing others about what the issue is
If most americans were sufficiently aware and organizing against it accordingly
The vast majority of successful revolutions are only those that had organized revolutionaries.
OK. I see your messaging is at odds with itself and you understand the assignment.
You got top spot on this here memetic sharing of ideas. Which message for the Americans at home who by virtue of reading you on Lemmy are closer to you than not?
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I disagree. Most Americans know we are the fire nation/empire from Star Wars.
Well at least most people I know.
You forgot the important part
“And they’re proud of it”
It’s crazy how military families are so into being in the military, out how proud they are of being Marines, etc. They’re literally doing the governments dirty work.
The question is: why would they be proud of being marines?
I mean, marines are the cannon fodder in every alien invasion movie, so, with that knowledge, that military branch is composed of useless moving targets.
Propaganda. Lots and lots and lots of propaganda.
Propaganda about being the first line to get sacrificed in every alien invasion? Lol
I don’t know if you’ve lived in rural America, but I have, and the fast track to quasi-celebrity status out there is to join the Marines or get KIAd. Americans have been heavily propagandized about making the great and noble sacrifice to “defend the country”.
I live in south americA
Yeah, the US, particularly rural US, has been propagandized an absolutely ridiculous amount. Being seen to sacrifice or die for the empire is seen as a glorious thing both in and for your community.
Self sacrifice for family/church/country is a big part of their hero’s journey narrative.
Very true.
I thought the Empire in Star Wars was supposed to be Third Reich Germany. They literally both have “stormtroopers.”
Originally i would agree but i am referencing how things are today as that’s what the meme is referencing.
If you asked Americans today if they are the rebels or the empire the folks I know concede that we are the empire. We are the ones going into other peoples home towns with military occupation.
Fair. I was mostly thinking about it from the perspective of what the writers had intended at the time.
Most people you know seem a lot more aware than the average American in my experience
I think we’re more like the Alliance from Firefly.
Most people are just trying to go about their day-to-day, and the war and major imperialism was done a long time ago. Now there are a few in the government who keep doing evil shit, but for the most part it’s a big useless bureaucracy.
the war and major imperialism was done a long time ago.
This is literally a myth that papers over their current warmongering and imperialism
That people don’t know about because it isn’t covered in the media unless you actively look for that info. So it might as well have happened a long time ago
So…sure we are the baddies, but it’s OK because America?
Enlightened 40Kism, we know we are the bad guys, cause there are no good guys, just worse villians.
What is 40Kism?
In Warhammer 40K, the Imperium of Man are awful, but they’re the ‘good guys’ because they’re human, any every other species is even more awful and would wipe humanity out given the chance
That is what new players/readers are told, sure.
Tau wouldn’t and doesn’t exterminate. On the other hand they may or may not brainwash their populace.
Tau?
Space Dawi
Most of the independent human systems doing just fine without the Imperium tyvm
Eldar
Some Necrons, maaaaybe. It’s hard to tell with them sometimes.
Hrud mostly seem to just want to be left alone.
A lot of aliens just chilling
Fun Fact: the Imperium doesn’t actually span most of the galaxy. Nor do they really “control” the area around their systems.
Because of how FTL works in 40k, some areas just aren’t accessible to them. There’s a full on insectoid empire called the Q’orl near Terra that they didn’t have access to or know about until the Warp currents shifted.
And apparently their technology is even enough to be a potential threat… And the Imperium learned this when they immediately tried to kill them, obviously
Ah yes you can join our ‘Greater Good’ if you volunteer to be our slaves and castrate yourself. Also if you change your mind and try to leave we’ll kill you.
But less bad than the imperium, no?
More like “we are the baddies, but the incredibly wealthy own the country and they want war, and none of us have to balls to start lopping off heads”
incredibly wealthy own the country
I wish people just said “the capitalist class”…
Makes it more obvious what the problem is and What Is To Be Done (working class revolution and overthrow).
Don’t think that’s what OP meant.
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Don’t know how you got that from one statement.
No, not okay. The monkey puppet reaction.
We are not shocked to learn we are the bad guys. I never said it’s okay, I just disagree with the reaction meme to indicate we didn’t know it.
Not sure where you pulled “it’s okay because America” from my statement but no need to jump to conclusions and put words in peoples mouth.
He pulled it from nowhere because tankies are incapable of nuance, especially if you hold an even mildly dissenting opinion. You’re either with them or against them, there is no in-between. It’s ironic how much they share in common with actual fascists.
Yes, that is the justification most Americans use; western chauvinism tells them that no matter how bad they are, the other places are worse. How many times on Lemmy do you see people say “America bad, but China or Russia or Iran would be worse (therefore we’re justified in facilitating massive bloodshed)?”
I’ve seen the former part of that sentiment on here, but I haven’t seen anyone use it as justification to go to war
It’s used to justify bombing Yemen, support the genocide in Palestine, escalating the proxy war against Russia, and starting one against China.
You can get a social democrat to acknowledge that every conflict America has supported since WWII has made make the world worse, and they’ll still insist that this time, it’s different.
And half of lemmy are worse than that.
…escalating the proxy war against Russia…
So, comrade, how much of Ukraine should surrender for about 6 years of “peace” with Russia?
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I for one wouldn’t have used unrest as a chance to do a coup. But if I did, I wouldn’t have planned who to install in what positions over an unsecure line.
And so, Ukraine would have stayed a democracy that is more economically aligned with Russia, and Russia wouldn’t have invaded.
I for one, wouldn’t have spent 40 years trying to overthrow a proletarian democracy, eventually succeeding in sponsoring a coup.
So Ukraine and Russia wouldn’t be right wing nationalist nations and would instead be part of a progressive federation.
The path where America is not in control and making the decisions for the rest of the world doesn’t even enter the liberalist mind. The inability to imagine an alternative world order is heavily ingrained and maintained by fear of “the other.”
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The portions of Ukraine that Western Ukraine was shelling before the invasion.
The lines have hardly moved in a year, despite thousands more dead and millions more displaced. Every bomb we send is a bad day for someone, statistically mostly civilians. To send more bombs is to sacrifice more people, for the same geopolitical outcome.
It’s a not uncommon theme in anime: some large imperialist/war nation or one associated with fire or occupying Japan.
It’s also worth noting that Japan had a history of imperialism and occupied a significant portion of the world around them not too long ago.
Japan has a pretty similar world view to us. I don’t know a lot about Japanese culture, but I think a lot of its similarities contribute to anime’s popularity in the US. We both have pretty rigid class structures, appreciate violence and capitalism and are enamored with technology.
I know that Avatar is American, perhaps I just wanted to air out a pet theory, however I think it’s good for us to explore some of these assumptions with art and stories.
I think most of us aren’t the baddies though.
To be fair Not all fire nation citizens are bad either
Usually when there’s a imperialistic government it’s very rarely every citizens fault
A comforting/not comforting thought
I sort of believe that the vast majority of whoever from wherever would happily get along, but we still have wars.
Japan has a similar worldview to Americans because there’s been multiple points in history where we brute forced our ways on them, conveniently at times where their old ways were losing faith.
Forcing Japans borders open while they remained isolated with outdated weaponry, and the end of WW2.
Capitalism was drilled into their culture until it’s teeth sunk in and they had their economic boom.
Japan went from feudalism to an emerging modern industrialized state in what, 40 years? Industrial Revolution speedrun.
The irony of a diverse set of people from around the world talking about an American cartoon and in the same breath saying that American only knows war is not lost on me
The US cultural victory’d so hard that it’s hard to recognize it sometimes
Avatar is American, but it had fantastic cultural consultants.
Yeah the fire nation has way more similarities to Imperial Japan than anyone else. Island nation industrializes before their neighbours and just starts taking over. Style of dress, the archesticure, the names of the characters, all give a Japan vibe way more than an American vibe. But maybe drinking tea in a ceremonial fashion is something that’s part of American culture that I wasn’t aware of.
But currently the US is protecting global trade from pirates and sending weapons to democracies defending themselves from authoritarian psychopaths, which to some people is exactly how the Fire Nation behaved in Avatar I guess.
We have stopped sending weapons to Ukraine but have continued sending weapons to Israel.
Nothing about what you describe as is cut and dry as you are describing it. The easiest way to protect global trade from pirates would be to stop using global trade to arm psychopaths.
So your solution is just to do whatever the psychopath Houthis tell us to do?
Neville Chamberlain tried a policy of appeasement, it didn’t work. And when you’re thinking that psychopaths that attack civilians working on a commercial cargo ship are the good guys, your world view is really messed up.
The guys trying to stop a genocide are the good guys. I do have some criticisms of them, but any actions that decrease the ability to carry out genocide is a net positive.
Is your point that the outcome justifies the means? I feel the need to point out that this statement is dangerous, and statements like it have been used to justify evil acts.
You know what else is dangerous? Giving a genocidal state more weapons.
What the fuck?
Nowhere in my statement did I defend giving Israel weapons, this is a position I am strongly against.
My point in writing that comment was to point out that using fascist rhetoric is bad, no matter who is saying it. I support the Palestinians, but I would not support dropping nukes on Israel. Stating that any means would be justified gives the other side ammunition to attack you (and others with similar views as you) with.
“Any means” is the same reasoning the USA used when nuking Japan. And it’s the same reasoning that is currently being used to kill innocent civilians in the Gaza strip.
If attacking civilians is the mark of psychopathology then the US does a good job of arming such nations. What the Houthis are doing is not happening in a vacuum. They have a history of resisting regimes propped up by the US. Does that make them saints? No. But we’re not any better.
I agree, it’s not happening in a vacuum. The Houthis are doing the old fascist plot of blaming the Jews to gain power. We’ve seen it all before. This is what the biggest losers in history do again and again.
A movement under a flag of “Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews”, is a movement based on hate and it’s destruction is inevitable. Attacking global shipping is just them speeding up the timetable, but the end result was always going to be the same.
A lot of antisemitism mixed with a feeling of religious exceptionalism has resulted in hate movement in Yemen that thinks they won’t go the same way as similar movements in the past. They’re wrong.
Surprised it’s taken this long for people to grasp it.
We control the world’s reserve currency, and hold the ability to fry any country’s economy via economic sanctions whenever we want. We have the largest military in the world and that military is set up for the purpose of invasion. Yeah, China has a massive navy, but their ships are tiny, most likely for the purpose of defending their oceans and eventually taking Taiwan. We on the other hand have more carrier ships than anyone else, all for the purpose of being able to flex our might on anyone in the world.
People used to say that we attempted to police the world. I don’t hear it nearly as much anymore, but it’s accurate. We throw our weight around. We’re the world’s bully.
Yes, and to large extent NATO countries love to join in on the bullying. Britain and Australia jumped right in with the Iraq invasion for example.
Reminder that the empire from Star Wars is a stand-in for the US, while the rebels represent the Viet Cong.
US military playing ‘The Imperial March’ from Star Wars on a loudspeaker while heading to Gaza
America is everthing Americans claim China and Russia to be.
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Is there a country in the Middle East that America hasn’t bombed or invaded?
Is there one that is part of the US now?
Occupied territories yes.
And there’s a US colony committing a genocide in Palestine right now.
There are still American soldiers in most of them.
@JohnDClay @turkishdelight Zenz repurposes the pro-life argument that reduced birth rates are genocide to make it look like Xinjiang getting free healthcare & women who had 3 kids already receiving tubal ligations/ etc. is genocide the same way KKK guys think modernity is white genocide. China literally trained these people to be bilingual realtors and stuff like that, it wasn’t even a mega trade program or something. They got people to white collar shit Xinjiang is rich
Were the tubal ligations voluntary?
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@conditional_soup If you’ve heard of the one child policy here’s a fun fact none of you “China watchers” know. Most regions and/or minority groups did not get affected. If you were Han or anything in Tibet, or a minority any placd, you could be fruitful and multiply. Just an example of how China deliberately gives minority groups boosted democratic representation, healthcare access, training, and cultural representation. Which is what responsible nations should do (glaring at indian res)
@conditional_soup *Urumqi god this charlimit is so awful I can do 5000 but 500 is grueling. Sorry for triple tapping ya
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Huh? Pretty sure Guantanamo Bay is still open to this day. Not on the same scale nowadays, sure; but the CCP never claimed freedom as part of its core values either.
Reading comprehension really is a struggle sometimes. They specifically mentioned scale in their comment. Also, I kinda feel like being open about genocide doesn’t make it better.
They also compared Japanese U.S. internment camps during WWII to the current suppression of Uyghurs in China so maybe take what they say with a grain of salt.
You think reeducation camps to kill a culture are different?
You think Japanese camps were to kill a culture?
I think the camps for the Uyghurs are.
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It’s an international poker game and everyone is cheating. To see politics through a campist lens helps no one.
Acknowledging that the US has been the leader of the imperial core — the countries that have been colonizing the rest of the world for 500 years now — since WW2 is the realistic, materialist view.
Only difference now is that it’s changed form to mainly the economic subjugation (neocolonialism) of “former” colonies through unequal exchange under capitalism rather than direct military subjugation — though the US still has a major actual settler colony committing a genocide in Palestine right now.
Any country that tries to escape this system (by nationalizing its resources to prevent extraction by unequal exchange, usually by establishing a socialist state) is sanctioned (DPRK, Vietnam in the past, Zimbabwe etc), embargoed (Cuba), overthrown (Chile, Burkina Faso etc), or invaded (Vietnam, Libya, Korea, etc).
“Imperial Core” is from Star Wars and sounds like a cringe LARP.
Well, the empire from Star Wars was based on the US empire after all, and the rebels were based on the Viet Cong.
That’s partially true, the Empire was based on inspiration from the US, Nazi Germany, and USSR. The rebels are of course the Viet Cong.
USSR
Thank god the “empire” funded and supported the rebels against the empire lmao
The Viet Cong are not the only rebels to have ever existed, the USSR is well known to use excessive military force against its own rebels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Soviet_Union
Citation needed on that USSR claim, Lucas has only, to my knowledge, spoken of the USSR with respect to the inspiration he took from their film industry. He’s outright stated that the Empire is the US and the Rebels the Viet Cong, plus there are the obvious allusions to the Nazis with Stormtroopers and the color of the Empire’s unirorms, but to my knowledge nothing connecting to the USSR.
Return of the Jedi special edition commentary.
Believe it or not, Lucas is capable of finding both positives and negatives about both the US and the USSR.
Most of the aesthetic of Empire architecture is inspired by brutalist Soviet architecture, and ceremony for the Emperor’s arrival was inspired by October Revolution Day military parades.
The USSR was also a fascist dictatorship, the actual bureaucratic structure of the Galactic Empire much more closely resembles the USSR.
Edit: good points were made, it’s overly reductive to call the USSR a facist dictatorship
It is literally from anti-colonial theory lmao
Was this theory developed after Star Wars was already released?
Star Wars was loosely based on it so no wonder you’ll see parallels.
Even if it was, using media to explain ideas of politics isn’t new nor is it bad. Like how is using Star Trek or Star Wars or any other piece of media that the public is familiar with on a cultural level inherently a “Gotcha!” to an argument/debate?
“Hey this book that was taught in classrooms has some parallels to current events.” “Wow, you’re using your understandings of the world around you to make commentary? Weirdo.”
Everything you said can be true, and it can also still sound like a cringe LARP.
I acknowledge the US has been the “imperial core”. The thing I take issue with is the finger pointing.
As if the United States is unique in seeking out and pursuing its interests. China and Russia may not be the “imperial core” but, all nations will do what’s in their best interest.
That’s the flaw with nations, the campist lens of “America bad, Russia and China good” isn’t productive. Das all I’m saying.
No other country controls the global financial system like the US, and imperial core countries in general, does through its dollar hegemony and global monopolies.
Which is natural, since the entire modern world, its institutions and trade systems, are built on the past few centuries of brutal colonization of the rest of the world by western europe and japan.
finger pointing
Acknowledging reality isn’t “finger pointing”.
Given the same opportunity would Russia and China not do the same things?
But they don’t, so talking about those "what if"s are pointless. China’s current interests — and, broadly speaking, those of capitalist Russia even after the USSR has been overthrown — are mostly in line with the Global South’s against imperial core countries. There’s a reason sentiment like this is common across the developing world.
Many of western countries’ victims, like Cuba, DPRK, Burkina Faso, Palestine, etc., would not be able to function right now, or perhaps even exist, if they did not have China and Russia’s support. Of course, alot of them like Libya aren’t able to function anymore.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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How so?
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I don’t think America is communist.
Neither is China.
Well, not “communist” capital C, but certainly socialist, or at least with socialist leanings.
For example private land ownership isn’t really a thing in China, making essentially all natural resources defacto state-owned. It’s actually a really interesting idea IMO.
Are you illiterate? That is the whole fucking point of my reply. x2
neither is China
Are you illiterate? That is the whole fucking point of my reply.
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Don’t you think there are better, more recent examples of this?
(Oh, I missed the instance I was on lol)
? The most recent one is the ongoing genocide in Palestine that the US and its colony is committing.
No, “israel” isn’t a separate entity. It was formed as a general western settler colony in Palestine using british colonization tactics, and has been functioning as an american one.
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I don’t think US elections are terribly real either. You get whoever the Republicans want or you get whoever the Democrats want. If you don’t want either of those and vote for someone else you risk your least preferred candidate winning. You don’t get to decide who runs.
I’m not saying I like Russia and China but you can’t claim that their actions in anyway justify what the US does.
Also just because this post is about the US it doesn’t mean the other atrocities aren’t happening. Do we have to mention what China and the US are doing whenever the Ukraine war is brought up? Seems like a bit of a silly argument really
What are you on about? This post is literally about the US…
What are you on about? Incapable of following the comment chain? I’m not a top level comment
Idk man. As far as I understood, the main post is about the US, which the comment you replied to also talked about. And then you’re wondering why that person talked about the US and not other countries.
The US has been the de facto leader of the imperial core since WW2, and its government is thus directly or indirectly responsible for a large part of the suffering in the world right now — be it directly through wars, genocides/massacres, sanctions, embargoes, or indirectly through economic imperialism or neocolonialism — so yes, that should be the first country anyone comes up with. Probably also because I happen to be from one of its victim countries.
China has an active genocide
All claims of this come from imperial core countries or “independent” orgs funded by its corporations.
The Organization of Islamic Cooperation and delegates from dozens of Global South countries approve of China’s handling of the ETIM (a problem deliberately created by the US through Afganistan by the way) and deny western claims. This lines up with what the hundreds of millions of annual tourists to the region say.
Between the western govs responsible for killing, and continuing to kill, millions of muslims in the past few decades alone throughout Africa, Middle-East, Asia, and global south countries without a recent history of doing so (they are the victims rather), I for one know which not to trust.
Russia
The US colony has killed three times more civilians in its genocide in the past few months than the Russian military has in 2 years in its proxy war with the US. This isn’t remotely comparable.
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China denies it
Who cited China?
The majority of countries denying the western claims are muslim-majority Global South ones
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Always the same map
You’re using alt accounts to manipulate votes, lol
Sure lmao
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Love how you have to make up shit they never said because there’s no argument against it.
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You’re hilarious!
Could someone explain the joke to me? I’m not very smart.
Fox news calling the US an empire is not new. How old do you all think the moniker “Empire State” is? It’s wild how it’s in our language but we just don’t think about it.
Anybody know where I can get the Mandarin dub of the original cartoon?
Big nation go ooga fuck around n find out; hamburgerland munition go boom
Most Americans are too dumb to realize the allegory in ATLA.
There are a lot of assholish nations that could easily take that place, but imo there are enough references to Dalai lama in the show to assume that the fire nation is china
Imagine seeing a brutal depiction of genocidal imperialism in media and referring to it as ‘assholish’
Being “just a cartoon” I never thought of the dimension of it, but they literally wiped out an entire nation. Suddenly, comparing the fire nation to any current superpower seems wrong.
?? The US famously wiped out the native population within its borders. I’m not sure what history you were taught but genocide is a very common topic.
The Dalai Lama references are from the Air Nomads, not Fire Nation
That’s because the air nomads are basically Tibetan monks, also annexed by China in the 1950s
Yes, that’s how the metaphor follows through. The fire Nation destroys the air nomads the way the Chinese destroyed Tibet.
I think the only war we tried to show our military might “greatness” was the Gulf War. It did establish America as a coalition force to the world.
I think the meme is accurate to people who once supported the war in Iraq. I don’t think it reflects people that opposed it or, people who have since changed their views on it.
Basically every war we did during the Cold War was about “sharing” the greatness of capitalism over communism, too. We’re still pretending our embargo against Cuba is just for the same dumb reason.
And WW2.
greatness and freedom™
And UNO is the avatar that they won’t allow to exist. Or their fake avatar.
Not sure how a card game played by children has a resemblance to the Avatar.
played by children
Are you calling me a child?? /j
Yes. Not more internet for you until you’ve finished your homework.
:P
